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Aronstam's June 23 testimony

MR DICKERSON: Mr Aronstam let's not try and deflect the question. You knew very well that neither the United Cricket Board nor any cricketing authority anywhere in the world would have felt anything other than outrage if they had known that a bookmaker was paying players for information.

MR ARONSTAM: The question is what do you classify as information?

MR DICKERSON: Don't hedge Mr Aronstam. You know ...(intervention)

MR ARONSTAM: I never asked the man to throw a match. I never asked for anything that was out of the ordinary regarding the information that I requested. The information that I am requesting is the same type of information that is portrayed before One-day international or before a test match on television by other experts in their field. Because I am getting it from somebody who I think is a better expert, what is wrong with it?

MR DICKERSON: I will come back to my question Mr Aronstam, you haven't answered it. You knew, did you not, at the time, that your conduct in paying money for the purpose as you have explained it, of obtaining information from a professional cricketer would not have been countenanced by any cricketing body or authority in the world?

MR ARONSTAM: Well I never thought about it at the time the way you are putting it across, but I didn't think there was anything wrong with it at the time otherwise I don't think I would have told a lot of my friends what I had done. I would have kept it a secret and I told a lot of friends of mine about what had happened. So at the time I definitely don't think - I didn't think there was anything wrong with it.

MR DICKERSON: Well Mr Aronstam let's have a look at what you did or didn't think. On your own evidence you made two attempts to meet with MR CRONJE, one in Bloemfontein and one in Maritzburg which he called off. Not so?

MR ARONSTAM: Correct.

MR DICKERSON: And the purpose of those meetings, which he called off, were, as you put it, to get your ducks in a row for purposes of explaining what you had been up to.

MR ARONSTAM: The question is, whose ducks did we have to get into a row? (general laughter)

MR DICKERSON: Mr Aronstam that's very clever but please answer my question. The purpose, to use your words, to use your words, the purpose of those meetings was to get "our ducks in a row".

MR ARONSTAM: Well basically I'll tell you exactly what transpired from this. When the news broke of the fact that MR CRONJE had been caught for supposed match-fixing allegations I was going to go and report what had happened, and instead we decided, myself and another learned friend, decided to contact Mr Sackstein and tell him exactly what had transpired between myself and MR CRONJE. Another learned friend went to visit Mr Sackstein and told him exactly what had happened between myself and MR CRONJE. He was shocked because he knew nothing about it. I then came to a situation where I did not want to go and do anything that could hurt or harm Hansie Cronjé in any way. It hurts me more than anything else to sit here and have to go through - I respected Hansie as a champion, he was a hero, and to have to go and do and say things that hurt him, it's very difficult. So because of what happened the arrangement was with Mr Sackstein that we will not go to any of the people involved and report what had happened without consulting Mr Sackstein and MR CRONJE first. And we left it at that waiting for MR CRONJE's answer. Last Monday morning a phone call arrived from Mr Sackstein to another learned friend telling him we are - and I was the person who told Hansie that I think he will get amnesty, on the telephone I told him as it will become known that I did speak to Hansie in the last three, four weeks leading up to this event, probably every single day, that we are in trouble because he's going to tell exactly that I did visit him and I did pay him the sum of R50,000 and they had left out the leather jacket and the R3,000. My learned counsel, I think, actually told you guys that we had left the R3,000 and the leather jacket out. Because you people had left it out of your statements. And we never, I never had any intentions of trying to hide anything that had happened, but because of the fact that I had no intentions of trying to put Mr Hansie Cronjé into any trouble, or go forward with anything about this topic, I relied on him to lead where we must go to. So we never tried to hide anything. The minute I have ever been requested for anything I have given everything that has been asked for.

MR DICKERSON: Let me get something very straight from you Mr Aronstam, are you suggesting that you had a meeting with Mr Sackstein ...(intervention)

MR ARONSTAM: I am not suggesting I had a meeting, I am suggesting my learned counsel had a meeting. Another counsel which is not present here, another Mr Cameron.

MR DICKERSON: I understood you to say that you had had a meeting with Mr Sackstein, do you now say that that is not so?

MR ARONSTAM: I never said I had, I said my learned counsel had a meeting, another counsel that is not present. On the day of the game at the Wanderers, South Africa versus Australia at 12:30, 12 o'clock I instructed an attorney friend to phone Mr Sackstein's wife in Bloemfontein, get Mr Sackstein's number, phone him, she said she cannot pass the information of the telephone number on and that she will give him the message. He called us at the lunch break. And on the evening of the test - of the One-day match at the Wanderers South Africa versus Australia Mr Cameron went to visit Mr Sackstein at his house and told him ...(intervention)

MR DICKERSON: Mr Aronstam I don't want to get carried away with all sorts of things. You were not there, you don't know what was or wasn't said, do you?

MR ARONSTAM: I'll take it that my learned friend Mr Cameron told him everything, that I had given him the R50,000; that I'd given the leather jacket; that I'd given R3,000, yes.

MR DICKERSON: You weren't there, you don't know what was or wasn't said.

MR ARONSTAM: I'll take Mr Cameron's word as a very - he's an attorney, he's an astute person and he's well - that he told me that night - I waited for him at a Backgammon Club, he met me, something was wrong with his car, he borrowed my car, it was in Norwood, he went to visit Mr Sackstein at his son's house and he told me that he told Mr Sackstein everything from A to Z. And I know that Mr Cameron would not have - Mr Sackstein was - he told me that Mr Sackstein was shocked when he told him that another R53,000 had been paid across.

MR DICKERSON: Mr Aronstam that's all very well but what you were or weren't told by other people is nothing which falls within your knowledge and you cannot ...(intervention)

COMMISSIONER: This is not other people, this is his attorney Mr Dickerson.

MR DICKERSON: To come back to the question that I was addressing to you before you started pointing fingers at all sorts of other people, there were two meetings which were arranged, both of which were put off by MR CRONJE which, to use your words, were "so that we could get our ducks in a row". And I suggest to you that you knew, throughout, that your conduct, even if it was only in relation to paying money for information to a professional cricketer was not acceptable or proper.

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