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Aronstam's June 23 testimony

MR ARONSTAM: I don't agree with you, no.

MR DICKERSON: You thought you had acted in a manner which was entirely above board and proper.

MR ARONSTAM: There is no law that says you cannot pay for information.

MR DICKERSON: There is, Mr Aronstam, a law which says that you may not pay or offer to anybody something which requires them to do or refrain from doing something which they are required or not required to do in terms of their employment.

MR ARONSTAM: I did not.....

MR DICKERSON: My question to you comes back to this, and it's the last time I am going to ask you, are you seriously telling this Commission that when you paid money to Hansie Cronjé you thought that what you were doing was proper and above board?

MR ARONSTAM: Yes.

MR DICKERSON: And Mr Aronstam, do you accept that on your own evidence you used, at the very least, three persuasive tacks to try and persuade MR CRONJE to make a declaration, firstly by appealing, and not necessarily in this order if you regard the order as important; firstly by offering to make payment to a charity; secondly by appealing to redeem his reputation as a captain, and thirdly by professing yourself to be a cricket-lover?

MR ARONSTAM: I don't agree with you, no.

MR DICKERSON: Are you suggesting that you brought no persuasive or other pressure to bear on MR CRONJE?

MR ARONSTAM: I didn't put pressure on MR CRONJE to declare. I gave him a suggestion, which for the benefit of cricket was very good. When we got to start talking with each other in the room you wouldn't have thought that we had just met each other, and we started to discuss things. And when you start discussing and analysing things mutually amongst people you come to certain conclusions. So we came to a conclusion, yes we did discuss his image. Yes he did discuss for example that he hadn't declared in one of the previous test matches. So we discussed things, but that was - I never went there with three attacks in mind of giving him great suggestions thing - they did come up as topics, but they weren't three avenues of forcing the man to go and make a declaration, no.

MR DICKERSON: You see I don't want to belabour this point but I am now confronted with what appear to be very different accounts of what your motives and intentions were at different stages. According to your statement the discussion about the declaration and your offer to make a donation to charity were made at MR CRONJE's hotel on the evening of the fourth day when you met him at about 10 p.m. MR ARONSTAM: Incorrect.

MR DICKERSON: Well let me take you to your statement Mr Aronstam. Would you turn to page 3 of that statement, paragraph 9 you say - "At approximately 10 to 15 minutes after I had spoken to MR CRONJE I phoned him back and asked him whether or not it would be possible for me to see him that evening. He told me he was staying at the Sandton Sun hotel. He gave me his room number. We made an arrangement to meet at approximately 9.30p.m. He called me back at a later stage and asked me whether we could make it at 10 p.m." is that correct?

MR ARONSTAM: All that is correct except for one thing which you are mis-confusing, the charity donation was offered at about 7 o'clock in the evening, not at 10 o'clock in the evening.

MR DICKERSON: We will continue with your statement Mr Aronstam. You then go on in paragraph 11 to record that you went to the hotel; you went up to MR CRONJE's room; you introduced yourself; you discussed the idea of the declaration for England and you debated it. You also discussed various aspects of cricket in general. Is that correct thus far?

MR ARONSTAM: Yes.

MR DICKERSON: You then went on to venture your opinion that from the cricketing public's point of view, as well as in your own opinion his recent image as a captain of the national side was not good, that he was playing negative cricket, his own form was not good and that his attitude generally had been negative. That took place at that meeting that night.

MR ARONSTAM: Yes.

MR DICKERSON: You go on to say that he listened to what you had to say and you then went on to discuss the test against England at Centurion Park. And you then said to him that if your suggestion for the declaration was taken up it wouldn't make any difference because South Africa had already won the series. That was said by you that night.

MR ARONSTAM: Correct. What was also said was that whether the one lost or draw it made no difference.

MR DICKERSON: Yes that is correct, that is in your statement. You then continue through paragraphs 15, 16, all the way through to 21 where you set out the further contents of what was discussed, declarations in New Zealand, your request that he contact Nassar Hussein to discuss the question of a declaration with him, all that took place during that same conversation, that same evening.

MR ARONSTAM: Yes, but when the conversation took place, as I said once before, in MR CRONJE's evidence he made as though I told him that he must call Nassar Hussein to the room. I never ever said he must call him to the room. I said he should phone him.

MR DICKERSON: And the reason all of this was discussed, and the reason that you said he called Nassar Hussein on the phone or call him to the room, whatever, was because you were still trying to persuade him to declare.

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