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Cassim's June 26 testimony

MR CASSIM: Once again, I can't explain it, why I phoned him so many times.

MS BATOHI: Look, you must surely realise Mr Cassim, you don't make 16 and 28 calls to Mr Cronjé, you make three or four calls a day. What was the sudden urgency during the time that Mr Chawla was about to land in South Africa?

MR CASSIM: I can't explain to you what was the urgency.

COMMISSIONER: ...be able to give some sort of explanation, Mr Cassim. It's not all that long ago. This was this year, January month. I think you need to think about it a little bit before simply answering that you can't explain.

MS BATOHI: Bear with me, Mr Commissioner. And then on the 31st there's 13 calls to Mr Cronjé, and then after that from the 1st - if you'll bear with me, in fact the 31st is the day on which we agreed earlier was the Sunday which Mr Cronjé met Mr Chawla. I beg your pardon, that's a Monday. He arrived on the Sunday, the 30th. So the 31st is the meeting, there's 13 calls on the 31st, and then after that, from the 1st, you find your calls then move from 1 to 2 a day, 3. And then on the 5th you make 12 calls to Mr Cronjé. Can you explain those 12 calls? Starting at about - the first one, on the morning of the 5th as at 35 minutes past midnight on the 5th of February, and there's an 18 second conversation. Now look, what was - why - what was the need for you to call Mr Cronjé at 35 minutes past midnight on the 5th, and in fact have an 18 second conversation? What was that about?

MR CASSIM: I just can't remember, Adv Batohi.

COMMISSIONER: Even more an unusual call, this is at half-past midnight, surely you can remember something about that call?

Ms Batohi, while Mr Cassim is thinking about it, we've reached the stage of the day where normally we would adjourn.

MS BATOHI: Mr Commissioner, I don't expect to be very much longer, and I do understand that my learned friend Mr Witz would like to leave this evening. If we could perhaps carry on? I'll be not more than 10 minutes, maybe 5 to 10 minutes. Thank you. Your meeting with Mr Cronjé and Mr Chawla, what time did it take place on that Monday the 31st? Considering also that there was - no, just think about that.

MR CASSIM: I think it was between 5:30 and 6 o'clock.

MS BATOHI: Why did you call Mr Cronjé at 5 to 10 and have a conversation for 2 minutes and 5 seconds? That's after the money's changed hands and there's been this discussion that you testified about forecasting, et cetera. Why did you phone Mr Cronjé the same night, 5 to 11, have a 2 minutes and 5 second conversation? It couldn't have been just to say, 'Hi', 'cause you had just left him. Can you answer that, Mr Cassim. Do you have a problem answering that question?

MR CASSIM: I just can't recall why we should speak so long.

MS BATOHI: See, it's on the same day. It's very important there that you introduce Mr Chawla. You have this long discussion, there's money changing hands, and later on that evening you phone at 5 to 11 and have a 2 minute, just over 2 minute discussion with Mr Cronjé. What was the need for you to do that that evening, if it wasn't to discuss what had just happened earlier that evening?

MR CASSIM: It wasn't what - it wasn't to discuss what happened earlier.

MS BATOHI: Well, tell us what was that call about?

MR CASSIM: We were just speak generally, Adv Batohi.

MS BATOHI: What was the need ...(intervention)

MR CASSIM: I had a lot of conversations with Hansie generally.

MS BATOHI: No, Mr Cassim, I'm not going to belabour this point, but you've had a meeting with him earlier, you spoke generally I take it. What was the need to phone later at 5 to 11, to have a general conversation when you've only just met the man a couple of hours before that? I see you're having difficulty answering that question. I think we'll just leave it at that. On the 5th you made 12 calls to Mr Cronjé. Any explanation for that? And there're some quite long calls, I see. There's one for 77 seconds, 86 seconds, 56 seconds, 92 seconds. So they're not just trying to contact him. You actually speak to Mr Cronjé at least 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ,6, 7, 8 times on the 5th. What was that about?

MR CASSIM: Was Mr Chawla still in the country at that time?

MS BATOHI: He wasn't.

MR CASSIM: Probably Mr Chawla would have contacted me, asked me to get hold of Hansie, if he could phone him.

MS BATOHI: Yes, but then you would have gotten hold of him the first time that you spoke to him on the 5th, which was at 35 minutes past midnight for 18 seconds. Then you phoned him at 8:23 that morning for 19 seconds. You just talk to him. Then you phone him at 9:01 for 77 seconds, and it goes on. 16:39 for 86 seconds. So if Mr Chawla phoned you to tell you to contact Mr Cronjé, what's all these conversations about, if that was all it was, as you would like this Commission believe?

MR CASSIM: Once again, I just can't remember all these conversations, Adv Batohi.

MS BATOHI: Wasn't it to clarify your role in this relationship, Mr Cassim? Weren't you really the middle-man? Weren't you making arrangements with Hansie, et cetera, on behalf of Sanjay?

MR CASSIM: No, definitely not.

MS BATOHI: Just one other thing. When you consulted with us you said to me that Mr Cronjé had phoned you after the storm broke and told you not to say anything, you remember that?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MS BATOHI: Why would he do that if you knew nothing?

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