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Cassim's June 26 testimony

MR CASSIM: Well they were talking of pitch, they were talking of everything. I can't recall everything that they were talking of.

MR MANCA: They were talking about match forecasting, as you put it in your statement?

MR CASSIM: That's right.

MR MANCA: At that stage did any alarm bells start ringing?

MR CASSIM: Not really.

COMMISSIONER: What is meant by match forecasting, what is meant by that? Who is going to win and who is going to lose?

MR CASSIM: No I think match - they were discussing like what scores will go. If my memory serves me correct, the pitch. He was asking players that were going to play. I mean forecasting, I can't recall the forecasting part that's why I am just trying to think carefully. Well as far as I can remember it was not who was going to win and who is going to lose.

COMMISSIONER: Well then what is the forecasting, how many runs a team is going to make? How many runs a team is going to make? How many runs an individual is going to make? How many runs a bowler is going to give any in his ten overs?

MR CASSIM: I think how many runs the team was going to make.

MR MANCA: You say in your statement you also heard them discussing team selection and who would be batting in which order and who would be bowling. Do you see that in your statement?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR MANCA: Was that in respect of the game which was going to be played the following day?

MR CASSIM: What was the following match?

MR MANCA: South Africa versus Zimbabwe at Kingsmead on the 2nd of February.

MR CASSIM: I can't recall.

MR MANCA: But whatever, whether you can or can't recall in relation to whether this was a conversation in respect of the match, once again I take it that there were no alarm bells ringing?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

COMMISSIONER: Forecasting how many runs the team is going to make that seems to me to be running very close to match-fixing, what would you think about that?

MR CASSIM: I have never been involved in betting so it was very difficult for me to think what was happening.

COMMISSIONER: What do you think now?

MR CASSIM: What I gather in all the information that's floating around there could have been possibly something happening between the two of them.

MR MANCA: Mr Cassim at some stage you say that you saw, you actually saw Mr Chawla take an envelope out of the safe in his hotel room, is that correct?

MR CASSIM: Correct.

MR MANCA: And he gave that envelope to Mr Cronjé, is that correct?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: I take it when he took the envelope out of the safe it was closed, it was a sealed envelope?

MR CASSIM: What I saw, well I think - it was a sealed envelope, that's right.

MR MANCA: A sealed envelope that he gave to Mr Cronjé?

MR CASSIM: That's correct.

MR MANCA: If it was a sealed envelope which he took out of the safe and gave to Mr Cronjé can you explain to me how you are able to say in paragraph 8.19 of your statement that - "I saw Sanjay take an envelope containing money and hand it to Mr Cronjé", because you will agree with me that if the envelope was sealed you wouldn't know that there was any money in there.

MR CASSIM: Alright, but in common knowledge I am sure, if he took it out of the safe it must have contained dollars then.

MR MANCA: So now we know that you know that not only did he take an envelope out of the safe which was sealed, it not only contained money but you have got x-ray vision so good that you can see that it contains US dollars.

MR CASSIM: From the information I gathered in the newspapers that Hansie said what it was.

MR MANCA: Mr Cassim I am not cross-examining you on what information you may or may not have gained in the newspapers. I am cross-examining you on the basis of the statement that you compiled together with your legal representatives wherein you make, and forgive me if I misunderstand you, but you say the following: "I then saw Sanjay take an envelope containing money and hand it to Mr Cronjé". Now you didn't say in the statement that "I saw him hand an envelope and in regard to what I've read in the newspapers and seen floating around, it must have contained money. " It's a very short sentence, it's a very simple sentence. It says, "I saw him hand an envelope containing money". How did you know there was money in the envelope?

MR CASSIM: I just presumed it was money.

MR MANCA: Why should you presume it was money? What led you to that presumption?

MR CASSIM: When Sanjay told him -" keep this and we'll talk further."

MR MANCA: Okay, so on the basis of that you made a presumption?

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