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Aronstam's June 23 testimony

MR DICKERSON: The second leg of your appeal or your persuasive approach, Mr Aronstam, let's not beat around the bush, was to appeal to MR CRONJE's concerns about the public perception of his captaincy, is that not so?

MR ARONSTAM: I wouldn't say it's so, no. I wouldn't agree with you there. No.

MR DICKERSON: Well in fact, Mr Aronstam, is that not precisely what appears from the contents of your statement and from the propositions that were put to MR CRONJE by your attorney?

MR ARONSTAM: Well you see, a lot of things were discussed that night with MR CRONJE and he asked me, and I said to him, I said "At the moment your position is you're very negative in the whole world." We were discussing Hansie Cronjé as a captain for South Africa. So one of the things that started getting discussed was his nature as being the South African captain. And I told him afterwards, I said "Hansie, the reason you've been termed as negative is because you never do anything out of the ordinary anymore, you're not bold enough anymore." So I don't - whether you're saying that I went there pre-knowing what I'm going to say to him, definitely not, it just happened when I got there and that's how the conversation went.

MR DICKERSON: Mr Aronstam, there can be no doubt I suggest to you, that one of the legs on which you relied to persuade MR CRONJE to declare, on your own evidence, is that you appealed to him on the basis of what you said was the negative public perception of his captaincy. Is that or is that not correct?

MR ARONSTAM: I don't know.

MR DICKERSON: And the third leg of your persuasive attempt was your proposal that you would donate a very large sum of money to charity.

MR ARONSTAM: I think that was the first leg.

MR DICKERSON: And who was going to make that donation if it was made?

MR ARONSTAM: Me. Me.

MR DICKERSON: And if I understand your evidence, you were only intent upon doing so if you generated sufficient winnings from your own gambling endeavours, in order to fund that contribution.

MR ARONSTAM: Yes.

MR DICKERSON: That was very charitable. Did you convey that to MR CRONJE?

MR ARONSTAM: Yes, I did, that's why I had to phone him back and say "I need to come and see you." Because I knew that there's no more betting.

MR DICKERSON: You knew that after you had told MR CRONJE that you would make a donation to charity and you knew that after the declaration had been made the following day, but you did not tell that to MR CRONJE on the evening when you first met, did you?

MR ARONSTAM: Yes, I did tell him. I definitely told him. When I came up to his room for the second - when I came to him for the first time and I met him, I said "Hansie there is no betting, I cannot, the donation to charity cannot exist."

MR DICKERSON: You were present when MR CRONJE gave evidence, were you not?

MR ARONSTAM: Yes.

MR DICKERSON: And were you not also present and sitting in close proximity to your attorney, Mr Blumberg, when Mr Blumberg cross-examined MR CRONJE?

MR ARONSTAM: I was sitting behind him.

MR DICKERSON: You would have had no difficulty communicating with Mr Blumberg if you were impelled to correct anything which he said or if you felt that Mr Blumberg needed to be reminded of anything.

MR ARONSTAM: The honest answer is (a), I didn't concentrate all the time while I was sitting behind, at some stage I got very, I'd say a bit bored, but I was told by Mr Blumberg ...(indistinct) Mr Wits(?) not to say nothing. I was told "Just keep quiet."

MR DICKERSON: It's perhaps an appropriate ...

COMMISSIONER: It's a double negative.

MR DICKERSON: Let's just go back a step then Mr Aronstam, you said in your evidence that you were first consulted by the Commission on the 14th of June, is that correct?

MR ARONSTAM: If the 14th of June was a Wednesday - I was consulted on a Wednesday morning, if that was the 14th of June, yes.

MR DICKERSON: And I don't know if you're aware of this, that was two days after MR CRONJE had furnished the Commission with a statement in which your name was mentioned.

MR ARONSTAM: Yes, I'm aware of it.

MR DICKERSON: And when you were consulted by the Commission, I take it that was the first communication of any description which you had received from the Commission or any of its investigators or officers.

MR ARONSTAM: Yes.

MR DICKERSON: And when you were consulted by the Commission, were you shown a copy of MR CRONJE's draft statement?

MR ARONSTAM: No.

MR DICKERSON: Were you at any stage furnished with a copy of that statement?

MR ARONSTAM: I don't think so, no.

MR DICKERSON: Did you at no stage before the finalisation of your statement, see any statement either in draft form or otherwise from MR CRONJE?

MR ARONSTAM: I personally never saw MR CRONJE's statement.

MR DICKERSON: Do you know whether your legal representatives were in possession of such a copy?

MR ARONSTAM: I think they were, yes.

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