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Aronstam's June 23 testimony

MR ARONSTAM: "During one of our telephonic conversations he asked me why I had a new mobile number and he also questioned me about NSI. It was obvious from the questions that he asked me, that he had a private investigator checking on me as well as on my phone numbers. He found out that I had some shares registered in NSI, and that was the first time that basically the word NSI had ever come into existence. I explained to him that I used to work for NSI previously. I wish to state further that in all my discussions with Mr Hansie Cronjé, relating to cricket and cricket related matters, it was all done by myself and at no stage did it have anything to do with National Sporting Index. I'll further give evidence to the Commission - I have further given evidence to the Commission relating to cricket matches and have explained the difference between what is commonly known as spread betting and line betting. I've also explained to the Commission different things about fixed odds betting and have given evidence to the Commission that there is betting up until the last ball of any match, that it's exciting up until the last ball. Betting took place on that fifth test in Pretoria, up until basically the very last ball. There's never ever been a more - since I think Allan Donald was given LWB out, I think in a test in Durban, if my memory serves me - I'm not sure that my information's correct, Donald was given out in the last half an hour of a test match and we all know that he wasn't out, that this was probably the most exciting test since that day. And in the match in Pretoria all four results were always alive. Even in the last ten minutes of the game, the draw was well in the betting. Had South Africa decided probably to bowl very negatively, then it probably would have been a draw, but knowing Hansie's favour, he probably didn't want a draw, he wanted to go for the win. All they had to do was get into Mullally, and that would have probably been the end. I further explained in regards to a question of betting in cricket, the amount of skill and knowledge that is required, which is in the same vein as trading on the stock exchange. I will further explain to the Commission the particular role of bookmaker and what the position is if a an exceptionally large bet is placed on a particular game or outcome."

MR BLUMBERG: You have already told the Commission that, haven't you? The effect of a big bet and what ...(intervention)

MR ARONSTAM: Not quite. If, for example - we know now that the world cup bid for South Africa - for the world cup bid is coming out now, in the next few days we'll know which country is going to win the bid, if everybody goes back to recall when the Olympic bid was on, around the world people the day before it was announced which country had won the Olympic bid, when Cape Town was vying for the Olympics, a lot of money was being tried to put onto Greece, onto Athens. Nobody could get that money on, somebody had already leaked the information out and the money could not be placed on Athens. Around the world everyone was saying "What price Athens, what price Athens?" But in South Africa there was money on South Africa. And if you phone up a bookmaking firm in London and you ask them what price is South Africa, they guys say "Do you want to waste your money, everybody around the world knows already that Athens have won the bid the day before." So no bookmaker's going to go and take a big bet on something out of the ordinary. If you're a client of any bookmaker and your normal size bet is a R1 000 and suddenly you ask for a bet of R100 000 on any event, the bookmaker will not give you the bet. He won't give you the bet, he will know that you know something. If your normal size bet is R100 000 and you ask for R100 000, he will give it to you, but when you start playing out of the ordinary, the bookmaker knows that you have information and he's not there to lose his money. "I wish to state further that I never ever gave Mr Hansie Cronjé a gift for what happened at the fifth test at Centurion between South Africa and England. The money that I provided to him was for pitch reports and for any information he could give me regarding possibly the weather. I ..." ...(intervention)

MR BLUMBERG: Mr Aronstam, I think that's sufficient regarding your statement. Just one or two questions. There has been reference in this hearing to a certain Mr R, now you have met people in the gambling world, do you know of Mr R? Who he is.

MR ARONSTAM: Yes, I do.

MR BLUMBERG: Without mentioning who Mr R is, would you describe what he is actually in the gambling world?

MR ARONSTAM: Mr R is not a bookmaker, Mr R is a commission agent. Mr R does not - what Mr R tries to do, he's basically more, he's a professional gambler. Mr R runs around the world, seeing pitch reports, meeting various people around the world and his credentials are superb, but he's definitely not a bookmaker.

MR BLUMBERG: When you talk of a commission agent, how does a commission agent operate in betting?

MR ARONSTAM: Mr R, what he tries to do is place money for people. If a person would like to get a big bet on or something, they'll try and use Mr R to move the money. So he doesn't make a book. If somebody would like to have, for example, 5 000 of a currency on a bet, they'll ask Mr R to get it on and he will try and make a certain percentage by obtaining a better price somewhere else in the world. But he's definitely - he's not there to take the risk and lose the money. He doesn't make a book.

MR BLUMBERG: Dr Bacher referred to Mr R, do you think this is the same man? And how do you know?

MR ARONSTAM: The person referred by Mr Bacher as Mr R, is definitely the same man. I know him personally. After the test match that Dr Bacher referred around in Newlands, I met him in Johannesburg. We have become very good friends ever since. I was at the time on day going to fetch him to take him to a test match in Johannesburg, I had put him up to stay at the Don Hotel across the road from the Wanderers, I was dressed casually in short pants and a T-shirt, I fetched him from the Don apartment and there he was dressed beautifully in his suit, tie and jacket. I said "What are you doing?" He said "No, I'm going with Dr - I've been invited by Dr Bacher to the box at the Wanderers." He had told me the story that Dr Bacher allowed him to see the pitch at Newlands and he had become - he told me he'd become very friendly with Dr Bacher and one of his best friends was Robin Jackman - not Robin, the oldish one, not Robin Jackman, the other guy - Jack Bannister. I know him very well.

MR BLUMBERG: Thank you. Is there anything else you want to add to what you've said?

MR ARONSTAM: The only thing I can say is I wish this mess never ever arose.

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