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Aronstam's June 23 testimony

MR ARONSTAM: Correct. I sold my shareholdings in National Sporting Index Ltd at the end of March. I was offered a very lucrative offer and I couldn't resist it.

MR MANCA: Perhaps if I could maybe then just enquire a little bit further about our relationship with National Sporting Index, my learned friend Mr Dickerson asked you if you were a director of that company, you are sure you weren't a director?

MR ARONSTAM: Yes, I was - due to certain things that happened when we first started the company I was not a director.

MR MANCA: What things might those be?

MR ARONSTAM: I was involved in litigation with Nedbank, which is still going on at the moment and I didn't think it to be appropriate if I am involved in litigation with Nedbank to become a director of the company.

MR MANCA: Right. But now from what I can hear you say, you say that you sold your company, would I be correct to say then - would it be correct for me to infer that you were the major shareholder in National Sporting Index Ltd?

MR ARONSTAM: I was one of the biggest shareholders in National Sporting Index.

MR MANCA: Mr Aronstam I asked you a simple question, and I will repeat it. Were you the major shareholder in National Sporting Index Ltd?

MR ARONSTAM: There was equal shareholdings.

MR MANCA: How many shares did you have?

COMMISSIONER: Mr Manca perhaps you could give me some indication of the necessity for all these personal questions.

MR MANCA: Once again Mr Commissioner I would stress that this is an inquiry and I don't quite have the terms of reference in front of me, but this inquiry certainly relates to betting activities in South Africa over a particular period of time, and I would suggest that it is an issue worth investigating, being the conduct of employees, officers, of a company listed on the Johannesburg Stock Exchange in relation to information, money and the like which such people may have given to South African cricketers during that period. And that's why I think it is extremely relevant, with respect, Mr Commissioner.

COMMISSIONER: Yes but the last few words of your answer may have some relevance. Well now why not get to the point and find out if this gentleman has given any money to South African cricket ...(intervention)

MR MANCA: Well we know he has Mr Commissioner. He's ...(intervention)

COMMISSIONER: I am not going to allow a series of personal questions unless I am satisfied that they are directly relevant to the inquiry.

MR MANCA: Mr Commissioner my learned friend Mr Dickerson pursued a line of enquiry with Mr Aronstam in relation to what the view of National Sporting Index Ltd would have been with regard to his providing Hansie Cronjé with money and information. The answer was not, with respect, satisfactory from the witness because the witness indicated that well he was sort-of self-employed and it had nothing to do with National Sporting Index Ltd. Within the few questions that I have asked him it turns out that in fact to all intents and purposes he was the co-owner of National Sporting Index Ltd.

COMMISSIONER: What is the relevance of that? I beg your pardon.

MR MANCA: Once again Mr Commissioner the relevance is that this Commission is not, with respect, only investigating the conduct of MR CRONJE. It is investigating the ...(intervention)

COMMISSIONER: Obviously so.

MR MANCA: May I proceed with the line of questioning?

COMMISSIONER: Without having the need to state the obvious, I know that it is not only an investigation into Hansie Cronjé.

MR MANCA: Well Mr Commissioner I would also submit that any background information that Mr Aronstam can give me is also, with respect, relevant to his credibility, as would his conduct be as, and I still don't know, I am going to ask him again, what appears to be his 50% shareholding in a company that was listed on the Johannesburg Stock Exchange.

MR ARONSTAM: You said 50% I never.

MR MANCA: I haven't got that far, but give me a moment. In January of 2000 what was the percentage shareholding which you held in National Sporting Index Ltd?

MR ARONSTAM: 12.5%.

MR MANCA: You said that you had a major shareholding and/or an equal shareholding. Were there a number of other people who had 12.5%?

MR ARONSTAM: There were two people who had 12.5% and the balance of people had a lot less. A lot of people have got shares. It was a listed company, money was raised, and when you raise you don't - own a balance of your company, you only own a small percentage. And one of the reasons I left National Sporting Index I owned too small a share in the company.

MR MANCA: Who were the other two major shareholders, the other two persons who owned 12.5% each in National Sporting Index Ltd?

MR ARONSTAM: I am prepared to tell you but I don't think it's relevant. If the Judge says I must tell you I will tell you.

MR MANCA: I want you to tell me Mr Aronstam.

COMMISSIONER: If it's relevant Mr Manca ...(intervention)

MR ARONSTAM: I'll only tell you if the Judge says I must tell you ...(intervention)

COMMISSIONER: Just a moment - what is the relevance of knowing who the other shareholders are?

MR MANCA: Well perhaps Mr Commissioner it might be relevant to know what those two other shareholders would have thought of Mr Aronstam's conduct in approaching MR CRONJE and offering him money for information.

COMMISSIONER: I have not the slightest interest in what the other two shareholders of NSI would have - concerned, would have been had they known that Mr Aronstam was doing ...(intervention)

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