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Aronstam's June 23 testimony

MR ARONSTAM: Yes.

MR DICKERSON: What was said after that and by whom?

MR ARONSTAM: MR CRONJE it was said to me, that he could basically throw a game of cricket as he could organise other players. The best way to make money and losing a game of cricket is to have other players on your side and he could organise a few of the players. And I was amazed. I could still picture this now, sitting in this chair over here that night. I still remember getting into my car, phoning friends of mine up, I have a nice car with a telephone inside, dialling people and I might have been in seventh heaven, (a) because there are certain friends of mine I have been discussing with the nature that I have been convinced for a long time that certain cricket matches are not played on merit, and I was of the opinion, I have been telling him that everybody says South Africa have never been involved, I used to say to him, I think South Africa are involved. And that night when I got out of the - in my car and I got - I said I told you so and he was shocked. I came home I told my wife, I said I don't believe this, I said you will never believe what the man told me. The man told me he can throw a game of cricket. And that's what transpired.

MR DICKERSON: You see your account of this is remarkable. What you have just us is MR CRONJE says to you, "how is it possible to make money out of cricket?". You reply by saying "the ball is in your court". And then MR CRONJE proceeds to tell you exactly how to make money out of cricket. Is that your explanation of what happened?

MR ARONSTAM: As I've said earlier, as I've said in my first meeting with the investigation team, nobody will believe me, but the problem is in reality that is exactly what happened. MR CRONJE was standing up, we were both standing together, he had a suite at Sandton Sun, it was like a couch, we stood up together and he mentioned within one minute, one to two minutes, he could throw a match as long as South Africa were through to the final, he could throw - I said to him well there's no point in throwing the match against Zimbabwe because there's no betting on that match. You won't make any money there. He said the match against England he could throw as long as South Africa were in the final. As sure as I am living here that is exactly what was discussed.

MR DICKERSON: Mr Aronstam you missed the thrust of my question. Your account of this is that MR CRONJE asks you how you can make money in cricket.

MR ARONSTAM: Sure.

MR DICKERSON: And then, without getting any answer from you he then proceeds to tell you how to make money out of cricket.

MR ARONSTAM: I said to him "the ball is in your court". My answer is, "the ball is in your court", and then he started to explain to me what he could do. He could lose a game. He said well the best way to make money is to lose a game.

MR DICKERSON: And that, according to you, was understood by you as an offer to throw a game.

MR ARONSTAM: Well if any layman is talking to somebody and one of the guys said the best way to lose a game, the best way to make money is to lose a game, what would it mean to you? I think to any person it would mean the man is prepared to throw a game. Especially when he says, as long as we've made the final I can lose the game. So I said "who have you got with you?". And he says, "I have Bojé, Gibbs, Strydom and ...". I have even - I have never told this to other people, whatever, he even makes like he got Strydom is new in the team, I said "why Strydom because Strydom is new in the team?". So it all makes sense.

MR DICKERSON: And having been told this, what you are now saying, what did you do about it?

MR ARONSTAM: I told a lot of my friends and they were shocked, they were all amazed. And then what happened was South Africa lost the game along the route and MR CRONJE - and then my comment was "Hansie, I said well that won't be working any more because you have to win these games to get to the final now". And that was the last that was ever discussed about throwing the game in Port Elizabeth, never ever mentioned again.

MR DICKERSON: I want to ask you something Mr Aronstam, have you been offered indemnity from prosecution?

MR ARONSTAM: I never asked for any indemnity as I have done nothing wrong.

MR DICKERSON: You feel it is quite appropriate and acceptable to approach a sporting figure and offer sums of money, which you may regard as insignificant but which I think you will agree most people regard as very significant, in return for information?

MR ARONSTAM: I think there is nothing wrong with getting information. If you say "information", at the moment around the world before One-day match or test match starts a pitch report is given by supposed experts for the matches. In horse racing you go to your trainer and you ask the trainer, what do you think about your racehorse? Is it wrong to ask a sportsman for information - I don't think so. Maybe that information should be given to everybody as common knowledge and it shouldn't come out that players shouldn't be allowed to talk to bookmakers. We are not here to corrupt games. We don't want games thrown. We don't want games challenged. I have never ever brought this up to tell you but whenever a series of matches have been rigged payments have never taken place on those matches. In 1994 a series in South Africa between Pakistan and South Africa and Pakistan and Zimbabwe all betting transactions on those games taking place on the sub-continent, which was the basic - even at the time there was no betting in South Africa, all betting was not paid because of the fact that it was found out, in the test match between Zimbabwe and Pakistan, all the word had got out to the bookmakers in the industry that Pakistan had thrown all those games, all payments were suspended. And once again it happened again in 1999, before the start of the World Cup in Sharjah, Pakistan threw games against England. The betting world decided there is no payments to be made on the whole Sharjah tournament. So it doesn't help bookmakers to have matches rigged, because the big money, as I said to you, is offshore and there will not be payments made on the match. You can't keep a secret when you are trying to make business on a cricket game. It's going to leak out and there will not be any payments.

MR DICKERSON: ... prides himself on his knowledge of cricket and the rules of cricket Mr Aronstam. What would your impression have been of the UCB's view if they had known that you were paying any cricketer for information?

MR ARONSTAM: At the time I never thought about it.

MR DICKERSON: Well if you had thought about it Mr Aronstam.

MR ARONSTAM: I don't know.

MR DICKERSON: Come on Mr Aronstam you know the rules of cricket, you know what the ICC code of conduct has said, you know what the UCB's attitude is.

MR ARONSTAM: Well when you talk about well Dr Bacher's visit - Dr Bacher's been socialising with supposed bookmaking agents from India, what - he was being represented in the President box, a guy that's come out here from India to bet on games, Dr Bacher is actually allowing the man to walk on the pitch prior to the event. What's the difference.

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