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Aronstam's June 23 testimony

MR ARONSTAM: I don't know. Those things you have to ask the attorney.

MR DICKERSON: And your evidence now then, it seems to be, is that when you met with MR CRONJE that evening you had gone to meet with him for the specific purpose of telling him that you were not able to put bets on the game.

MR ARONSTAM: I went there to tell him that there's no betting on the game. That is one of the most important reasons. If afterwards I could possibly get valuable future information it would be very assistal.

MR DICKERSON: Must we now then understand that your intention when you went to see him that evening was now not to persuade him to declare the following day, but rather to suborn him, if I can put it that way, to giving ...(intervention)

MR ARONSTAM: No my ...(intervention)

MR DICKERSON: Mr Aronstam I do the courtesy of hearing out your answers would you kindly do the courtesy of hearing out my questions. Must we understand then that the purpose of your visit that evening was not any longer to persuade him to declare the following day to enable you to make money, but rather to suborn him or secure him or persuade him to give you information in future in return for money?

MR ARONSTAM: No. I went there originally with one thing in mind, only, to discuss with MR CRONJE the declaration and to tell him that I cannot give the money to charity.

MR DICKERSON: But I understood you to say a moment ago that one of your purposes, at least one of them, was to get him to give you information in future.

MR ARONSTAM: That's what transpired after that.

MR DICKERSON: Alright Mr Aronstam. Now the R50,000 that you gave MR CRONJE which he said in his evidence he regarded as a gift from you but which you claim was for future information, was given by way of two payments, one of R30,000 and one of R20,000. The R30,000 was that given on the evening of the final day of the Centurion test?

MR ARONSTAM: No.

MR DICKERSON: When was it given?

MR ARONSTAM: It was given on the Wednesday night.

MR DICKERSON: Is that the night following the test?

MR ARONSTAM: The night following the completion of the test.

MR DICKERSON: And that's a fairly substantial sum of money Mr Aronstam, you suggest that that had nothing to do with anything relating to a gift or anything that had or hadn't been done in the Centurion test?

MR ARONSTAM: Well it all depends as to what you relate as a sizeable amount of money. I think that, according to the newspaper this morning, you guys are earning a lot of money sitting over here, and in my business R30,000 is not that much money. So if you take it into that respect what you guys are earning for a days work is that a lot of money? (general laughter)

MR DICKERSON: Mr Aronstam do you regard R30,000 as an insignificant amount of money?

MR ARONSTAM: Well if you the guy who works and you - let's give you a good example, if you a guy who works and you clean the streets maybe it is a lot of money. But if you are a guy in my position in the gambling world it's not a lot of money. I, just off the record - (general laughter) - shouldn't say "off the record" sorry, but I spend a lot of money in my gambling life. I am involved in horse-racing in a big way. I own a lot of racehorses, and I own the racehorses in order to back to win money. So when you feed a racehorse it costs a lot of money to feed every month a racehorse, so you can say that I am paying for information by owning the racehorses because I want to back them. A horse costs about R3000 a month to feed. So in hindsight what I have paid MR CRONJE for information is not a lot of money. And if you ask me again if I'd pay it again, well I'll tell you it was worth it. The information, a pitch report is invaluable in the betting world.

MR DICKERSON: After Mr Blumberg had cross-examined MR CRONJE you, as I understand the evidence you gave at the commencement of your testimony today, consulted with Ms Batohi of the Commission, is that correct?

MR ARONSTAM: Yes.

MR DICKERSON: And on the basis of what you told her ...(intervention)

MR ARONSTAM: Sorry I just said "yes" to something which I didn't hear properly. (general laughter)

MR DICKERSON: After Mr Blumberg had cross-examined MR CRONJE, if I understood your evidence at the commencement of your testimony correctly you held a consultation, or consultations with Ms Batohi is that correct?

MR ARONSTAM: No that's not true, no.

MR BLUMBERG: Mr Commissioner to assist my learned friend we consulted with Ms Batohi on the Monday evening. MR CRONJE only testified on the Tuesday.

MR DICKERSON: I speak subject to correction, I was under the impression that after the furnishing of the draft statement there'd been a further consultation, but I may be incorrect.

To return then to what you told Ms Batohi, you seem to have suggested to her, not as strongly as you put it today, that MR CRONJE out of the blue said to you at the meeting on the evening of the fourth day of the Centurion test something about throwing a match.

MR ARONSTAM: Correct. When I met with Ms Batohi she asked me why in my statement did I not write it in detail. And the answer was because the previous week, on the Thursday, I met the gentlemen Graham and Vincent, and I told her the story about MR CRONJE offering, suggesting to me that they could throw a test, not a test a One-day match. And I said to Ms Batohi, it's not in the statement because who is going to believe me. You're talking about the South African captain, highly respected by the community. A person who I regard as a good friend offering me that night to throw the test. If I put this in the statement who is going to believe me. Exactly what you are saying now, who is going to believe me.

MR DICKERSON: In fact Mr Aronstam if I read your statement correctly, you haven't said that in your statement other than in the form of a very oblique statement that, and I'll read it to you: "I then got up to leave the room and as I was leaving MR CRONJE said to me how was it possible for him to make any money out of cricket. I replied by saying 'the ball is in your court'". Is that statement correct?

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