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Cross-Examination of Dr. Lewis

COMMISSIONER: I have a wider responsibility as it concerns Mr Cronje, in the sense that I am not only required to make factual findings by reason of this Commission's function, I also have to assess whether he has told the whole truth as a sort of pre-condition to the grant, not by me but by the Prosecuting Authority, of an immunity from prosecution or an indemnity as it is sometimes called.

It is in that context that I want to ask you a few questions. Your starting point was that his condition does not preclude him from giving evidence, but then on further analysis it seems to have been a little watered down, if I may put it that way, you mentioned that he suffers lapses of memory, and I am not questioning the genuineness of that, I am merely trying to ascertain whether at the end of the proverbial day, having regard to his condition, with particular significance of his being a witness before this Commission, I am going to be in a position to make an assessment. We have memory lapses and lapses of - involving ability to recall, that is so, is it?

DR LEWIS: That is correct.

COMMISSIONER: Then we have the problem which is perhaps not an insuperable one, that he might not fully understand the questions that are being put to him, that can presumably be corrected by as you have suggested, splitting the questions up into component parts, but that is a problem, nevertheless, is that not?

DR LEWIS: Well, I think that, I don't see that as being a problem, I think that one, it is more a sense that questions could be posed to him, but if the person posing the question feels that he is not answering it fully, then maybe they just need to be more specific about what it is that they are asking.

COMMISSIONER: Then we come to the question of what you described as aggressive questions, as far as aggressive in manner is concerned, I don't for one moment suppose and I would certainly not allow it that any of the legal people here, who will be cross-examining Mr Cronje, would do so in an aggressive manner, but cross-examination as Ms Batohi has indicated to you, is by its very nature, hostile and in that sense, aggressive.

Now, you have described the effect that that could have on Mr Cronje, isn't that a further impediment to my being able to make a proper assessment of his credibility?

DR LEWIS: I think it would just be helpful to keep in mind that even a question that is not thought to be aggressive, might be perceived to be aggressive, and that that might in turn, induce a kind of defensiveness, which might look like an evasiveness, but then again maybe a question like that could just be rephrased or people could make it clear what they are looking for.

So really what I am saying is it is not that he won't be able to answer those questions or that he won't do his best to answer the question, but that one should just understand from his perspective, that it might be, at least psychologically be seen as being threatening to him, and he might then become defensive, but I don't think that that should interfere with the process, rather that one should have it in mind and one should tread cautiously I suppose.

COMMISSIONER: Yes, I suppose at the end of the day, I have to make the assessment, if I am able to, with the tools that I have to do it with.

DR LEWIS: Can I just return to a previous question, because it felt like it was a two-part question, where you asked about his lapses in memory and how does one distinguish whether he has a genuine lapse in his memory from whether he is trying to hide something.

I think what I am drawing attention to is that on a number of issues which at the time, were felt to be unimportant, he might not recall those and that those again, would in no way make him guilty or responsible or whatever, but rather that simple questions, which really has no overall relevance, he might genuinely not remember those, and rather than making up a story, he would acknowledge to not recalling that.

It is interesting for example that because of his profession and his particular interest, he can remember details about how many runs he might have scored in a particular game or what the condition of the pitch was like, but things which are relatively unimportant like what he might have been wearing and so on, that those are the sorts of things that he might forget, so in my impression, things which have significance to him, in general, he will remember, and he shouldn't have lapses in memory, but some of the finer detail he might forget.

I suppose the sense that we might all have from time to time, of being under stress, for example going into a room full of people, and certainly not being able to remember anybody's name, it is of that nature, that the stress will interfere with one's memory and then half an hour later, once you have settled down, you are able to remember things more clearly.

I think what he has is a rather extreme version of that, where this is extremely stressful and that one is then unable to recall the finer details often.

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