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Cross-Examination of Dr. Lewis

COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Ms Batohi?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BATOHI: Thank you Mr Commissioner. Dr Lewis, I find myself in a somewhat difficult position here, because on the one hand, the Commission wants to get to the bottom of this issue and on the other hand we have a problem where it appears from what you are saying there may well be instances where Mr Cronje will not be able to answer questions that you refer to as complex.

What sort of questions would you think, having consulted with Mr Cronje, what sort of questions do you think he would perceive as questions that are a threat?

DR LEWIS: Well, I think that you are asking two separate questions, firstly what is a complex question. There I am referring really to a question of multiple parts, or with a number of dates, so I think that it would be helpful if questions were broken down into short questions.

Questions that are regarded as being threatening, I imagine any questions that is felt to be aggressive or mildly aggressive, might then be perceived, possibly perceived as being very aggressive.

COMMISSIONER: Is that aggressive in manner or aggressive in content?

DR LEWIS: I would say aggressive in one or the other.

MS BATOHI: What in your view would be questions that would be aggressive in content?

DR LEWIS: It is difficult for me to say, I don't know what is on your mind, but certainly questions in which, they would be for example accusatory or in some way subtly undermining, those kinds of questions.

MS BATOHI: Well, Doctor, I have a problem, because I think a number of questions are going to be accusatory, and not necessarily undermining, but certainly would question what he did. The fact that he would find these sorts of questions to be, as you call it, perceived as a threat, is that going to affect the functioning of this Commission at the end of the day, because I think I can tell you now, that he is going to have to face a number of those sorts of questions and I would like your comment on how you think he would be able to deal with them, or not at this stage, if you can?

DR LEWIS: I think he certainly would be able to answer them, I suppose what I am asking for is that here is a man who is under considerable stress, and who once this Commission has given its ruling and moved on, will remain somebody who might experience this as being intensely traumatic, my feeling is that he already has been through a number of traumas and what I am appealing for I suppose, is just that we treat him as a human being with dignity, as I know that you would, and that questions for example, we need to keep in mind that they might be perceived by him as being aggressive and so that might in him, produce a kind of defensiveness which might be misinterpreted then as being evasive.

Rather what I am saying is if your feeling is that he is being evasive, then I would plead with you to rather slow down, to maybe rephrase questions, to break questions up into smaller parts and to present questions in such a way that while they may be accusatory, are not so in gesture.

MS BATOHI: Dr Lewis, I don't want you to get the impression that I am not sympathetic to the condition that Mr Cronje finds himself in, and that I don't understand that he is probably suffering from depression, but we have a task at hand and this complicates matters considerably.

You have stated that you consulted with him on the 13th of June for the first time, and that he suffers from major depressive disorder, you have stated that you have looked at clinical symptoms and your evidence has been that these are reported by the patient, is that correct?

DR LEWIS: That is correct.

MS BATOHI: So what I am putting to you then is that your assessment of the client, with regard to whether he suffers from depression or not, is based solely on what he tells you, is that correct?

DR LEWIS: No, that is not correct, it is based on what he tells me, together with the clinical evidence for what I see, and in addition, I should say that it is not as straight forward for example as just somebody describing that they have a disorder of sleep and therefore that would make one think of depression.

It is the characteristic disorder of sleep that is more likely to occur in depression, this is as an example, so that for example people with anxiety might have difficulty falling asleep, and the characteristic symptom of depression is that in the early hours of the morning, having slept quite well through the night, people find they wake up and can't return to sleep.

So for example, if somebody was trying to artificially create evidence that they had a depression, they would be unlikely to know that.

MS BATOHI: Yes, I understand that Dr Lewis, but what I am saying to you, what I am putting to you is that your assessment of the patient at the end of the day, largely depends on what he tells you, for example he is having difficulty sleeping, etc, is that correct or not?

DR LEWIS: Certainly one needs to take into consideration the symptoms together with the way in which the patient might make you feel, that is why for example a computer diagnosis of depression is not going to be that helpful and that I think that part of the skill and part of the training in becoming a psychiatrist or psychologist, is learning to experience how one feels in relation to somebody.

My experience with Mr Cronje was that I had a sense without having, even necessarily to have gone through the symptoms, that in fact he was suffering from a depression.

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