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Cassim's June 26 testimony

ON RESUMPTION ON 26 JUNE 2000 AT 10H05

COMMISSIONER: Good morning. I am sorry that we have been a bit delayed. We were apparently waiting for some documentation. So Ms Batohi who do we have next?

MS BATOHI: Thank you Mr Commissioner. The next witness will be Hamid Cassim. Before he takes the stand I wish to hand up to the Commission two documents. If I could hand them up and then I will just explain what they mean. The one at the top, can you just switch them around, the one that doesn't look like a circle but more - that's the one. Unfortunately they are not numbered at this stage. But that particular one is a diagram of calls between Marlon Aronstam and Hansie Cronjé and attached to that is a list of all the calls. As you will note they are calls from the 8th of March - yes I beg your pardon, that's the 8th of May, but there are actually two different sets, let me just explain this. If you look at page 2, if you look at the diagram at the top you will find at the bottom the calls between the numbers ending with 669, which is one of Mr Aronstam's phones and the number ending with 5136 which is one of Mr Cronjé's phones. That is 62 calls in all. Those calls between those two lines are reflected on the first page and the second page. And the calls between the cellphone of Mr Aronstam ending with the numbers 3481 and Mr Cronjé's ending with 6451, which is on the top left-hand side of the diagram, which is the 67 coming into Mr Cronjé and the 16 back to Mr Aronstam, those calls are listed in pages, the last two pages 3 and 4. Then the calls on the diagram itself you will notice between the home, the number ending with 167 is the home telephone of Mr Aronstam and you will see that there's five calls that were made to Mr Cronjé on the phone number ending 451 and these are not put in any list, they are included in the diagram because there's only just five calls between those two lines, and the other two calls between the numbers ending 669 belonging to Aronstam, and 6451 to Mr Cronjé. There are just two calls between those two lines and those are also listed on the diagram. That's just a brief explanation of what this document contains. Referring to the second document just perhaps for clarity at this stage I should only place on record that these reflect calls between Mr Cassim, whose telephone number is depicted in the centre of that diagram and the various players in the South African team, including Mr Cronjé, and also calls between Mr Cassim and Mr Chawla. May I also indicate at this stage that the list attached to the first page, pages 1 - 4 only contain details of the calls between Mr Cronjé and Mr Cassim. And the last page contains details of the calls that we have between Mr Cassim and Mr Chawla.

COMMISSIONER: So there are no details of calls, apart from the number of them, no details of calls made to other members of the team or management?

MS BATOHI: That is correct.

COMMISSIONER: I see.

MS BATOHI: They are available. It's just that they haven't been attached to this document.

COMMISSIONER: Now just one other thing. The calls between Sanjeev and Hamid Cassim, they, on the front diagram appear all to have been one way from Mr Chawla, Sanjeev, to Mr Cassim. Were there not calls going the other direction, or have I not interpreted this properly?

MS BATOHI: My investigator advises me that the problem with that is that we don't have the detailed billing of Mr Chawla's phone from the English. Hopefully once we get that we'd be able to trace those calls, but if you just bear with me I just want to clarify something with him. On the detailed billing of the phone number of Mr Cassim that's reflected in the centre, ending with 5950, there are no calls going back to Mr Chawla, on that detailed billing of that particular phone. Mr Cassim.

MR WITZ: Thank you Mr Commissioner. I will be leading the evidence of Mr Cassim. As you will see there is a slight change in the batting line-up from our side, and there are just two preliminary issues that I'd like to deal with before you swear Mr Cassim in and before he gives evidence. The first aspect Mr Commissioner, I have been in communication with Mr Cronjé's counsel, and they have informed me, and I think they have also informed yourself, that they do not wish to question Mr Cassim. They are not going to cross-examine Mr Cassim and I think they have excused themselves from today's proceedings, anything further to do with Mr Cassim's evidence. That's the first aspect. The second aspect which we just want to place on record, and this is from instructions from both Mr Aronstam as well as Mr Cassim, we want to dispel from our side, that is Mr Blumberg and myself, any notions that might have been brought across to this Commission re the late supply of statements, matters of that nature. What we would like to place on record is immediately after the proceedings on Friday the draft statements that were referred to by Mr Aronstam under cross-examination were shown to Mr Cronjé's counsel, this is the draft statement that was sent to the Commission, to Advocate Batohi as well as her investigating team, and other than small typographical errors, of which there were very few, the content of what he told the Commission is exactly the same, and they have satisfied themselves that there is nothing sinister, nothing's been added in, amended or changed. So any suggestions or notions that they've made towards either Advocate Batohi and/or her investigating team I think can be corrected. We want to set the position straight. We made everything available to them and I think they have now accepted that that is so. The importance of that Mr Commissioner, and what we wish to place further on record, is that Mr Aronstam's statement as the suggestion was possibly made, was not tailored in to fit with the evidence. This statement had already been sent long before Mr Cronjé's statement became available and his evidence as per that statement was one and the same. This was done on the weekend of the 17th and 18th of June, sent to the Commission on the 19th of June, and the signed one was only handed in and the copy was immediately made available to Mr Cronjé's legal team. The other aspect I think of utmost importance is that in regard to Mr Cassim, who is now going to give evidence this morning before you Mr Commissioner, his statement was made in the form of an affidavit after an initial meeting with Advocate Batohi and her investigating team, and she requested, purely for the purposes of placing proper evidence, assisting the Commission and placing proper facts before the Commission if it could be done in the form of an affidavit or a statement which we did. It was faxed through to Advocate Batohi here at the Commission and .

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