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Aronstam's June 23 testimony

Commission of inquiry into cricket match fixing and related matters

HELD ON: 23-06-2000

MS BATOHI: The next witness is Mr Aronstam, Mr Commissioner. He will be lead by his counsel or attorney, I'm not sure who.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS FOR A SHORT WHILE

ON RESUMPTION:

MARLON ARONSTAM: (sworn states)

COMMISSIONER: Carry on.

MR MANCA: Mr Commissioner I just noticed that Mr Dickerson wasn't here and I do think it's important, with respect that he is here to hear this evidence. As I interjected he walked in, but he admits that he wasn't here.

EXAMINATION BY MR BLUMBERG: Mr Commissioner, before I start leading Mr Aronstam, I want to place on record that I have - we have prepared a statement, copies of which have been circulated. A copy has been given to Mr Bacon for - the original, Sir, before - which I ask leave to hand in, Sir. I propose getting Mr Aronstam to read out his statement. But prior to reading out his statement, I would like to place on record a few facts leading up to the making of the statement, Sir. Sir, I would like to place on record that Mr Aronstam was contacted on Wednesday the 14th of June by members of the investigation team who requested an interview with him. They advised him to contact an attorney to arrange a meeting, and intimated they would be prepared to travel to Johannesburg to interview him. Mr Aronstam contacted us who were in Cape Town on behalf of Mr Hamid, and as both we were busy in Cape Town, suggested that we would arrange the meeting in Cape Town and that Mr Aronstam should come to Cape Town, which he did. On Thursday afternoon we had an extensive meeting with Messrs Boto and Dawes of the investigation team, and a long session of questioning and answers were given, Sir. We then returned to Johannesburg and undertook to supply a statement to the investigating team. We consulted briefly, both on Saturday and Sunday, we were restricted because of Mr Aronstam's business by race meetings, obviously so, and eventually when we returned on Monday evening, we waited for a draft statement. As the Commission was due to have started on the Monday, we only returned for the Tuesday, Sir. A draft statement was prepared by my counsel Mr Woods in Johannesburg, and sent up by telefax to us. This statement was in fact only signed, Sir, at - a further meeting, Sir, was held with Ms Batohi and the investigating team, where a draft copy of the statement was handed to them, Sir. At no stage, and we made it clear at that meeting to the investigation team, that this was a full and comprehensive version of the questions and answers that were given at the initial interview, Sir. And I would be amplifying on these issues as I lead Mr Aronstam through his evidence. Thank you, Sir.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Well, please proceed then Mr Blumberg.

MR BLUMBERG: Mr Aronstam, before we actually start reading this particular statement, I think it would be appropriate to possibly set out your insight into the gambling on sport ...(intervention)

MS BATOHI: I'm not sure if the witness has been sworn in.

MR BLUMBERG: Sorry, may I continue? Proceed to give us insight into sports betting, particularly with regard to cricket, as to where the big money is, the major markets are and the type of betting, particularly with regard to international cricket.

MR ARONSTAM: Commissioner, sports betting is relatively small compared to the rest of the world. Sports betting in cricket is more similar to trading stocks, shares, derivatives, based on the open market, especially in the sub-continent. Sport betting in the U.K. has been going for many years, and is very big, but it's the type of betting where you actually are gambling. Cricket in the sub-continent is not a gamble. You base it in exact same way, a person wants to buy, sell a Rand/Dollar. That's how they trade in a game of cricket. South Africa plays a very, very small role in sports betting. Spread betting is very minimal. You cannot go and get a big bet on a spread with any firm in anywhere in the world, be it South Africa or the U.K. I remember I was over in the U.K. a while ago with friends of mine, they had information that Pakistan - that the spin bowler for Pakistan who often opens the batting, Shaheed Afride (?), he would not feature much in the U.K. in the World Cup. They tried to get a big bet for the first 15 overs, that he was given 10 Pounds per run short. In the U.K. that's a very small bet. You cannot get anywhere in the world big betting on spreads, so it's been a fallacy throughout this whole Commission that you could go and pull coups and win a lot of money on spread markets. It's impossible, if anybody thinks they can do it, let them prove it. In South Africa the spread firms will take an average of between maybe - between R50 to R300 per run, maximum. And it's only if they have position both ways. So one guy is on the one phone going high, and one's going low. Niel Andrews did give you guys an in-depth version of spread betting, so I'm not going to go into that in detail. But you cannot get a big bet. I started a company called National Sporting Index, they won't take a big bet either. If somebody has to come in and wants to place a big bet, they are suspicious. Something is wrong. A guy might know something. So there's no way that anybody will accept a big bet and people can win a lot of money. The only place you can win a lot of money on cricket is in the sub-continent. Where it's traded like you're buying and selling currencies, future options, et cetera. The market moves ball-by-ball. For example, if the opening betting on a one-day match, if the prices started off as people - I don't know if everybody understands the terms here, but if the match started at 5 to 10, meaning that you put place R10 to win R5 on the favourite, converse you'd be able to lay back 55 in 100 the opposition. So what they're saying to you is they're prepared to give you 5 to 10, or take 5.5 from you. Same as if you're going to buy and sell the Rand/Dollar, they'll quote you 7, 701. You can either go low at 7 or high at 701 at the moment. Exact same scenario. That is where the big money is.

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