'It is legitimate for governments to free a nation under terror'

Afghanistan President Hamid Karzai will visit Delhi on Saturday. He will also travel to Shimla where he spent six years of his life, between 18-and-a-half and 24.

He spoke to Saeed Naqvi in Kabul last week about rebuilding Afghanistan, the threat from Osama bin Laden and, of course, his visit to Shimla.

President Karzai, don't you think the war in Iraq could have the following effects: a. that American attention would be diverted from Iraq, and b. that it might enrage your population when they watch whatever they do on television?

Bismillah Allah Rehman Rahim. No! The answer to both questions is No. The Americans and international communities' attention from Afghanistan will not be reduced or diverted. I have had calls in this regard from President Bush and Prime Minister Blair to reassure me it will not be the case. When the German defence minister was here, he gave me reassurances on behalf of his government so have other European countries -- that Afghanistan will continue to be cared about, to be looked after, that Afghanistan cannot be left alone to fall into the hands of the people who brought about the calamity in New York and the rest of the world.

Common sense and history tell the allies that are helping Afghanistan that they should not (abandon Afghanistan). Secondly, the Afghan people have good relations with the Iraqi people. Iraq is one of Afghanistan's closest friends. The Iraqi people are one of the best in this part of the world. Iraqi civilization, its Islamic civilization in particular, is very prominent and respected. They have contributed a lot to the Islamic world, the Arab world and to the rest of the world. We wish them the best, to have a government of their choice. We will go by whatever the UN decides.

In other words, you believe the Afghan experience inspires confidence in the Americans that they will bring about an effective regime change in Iraq which will be good for the Iraqi people. 

Now I don't know about the situation in Iraq. If it is similar to that of Afghanistan, if the people there are oppressed as the Afghans were by the Taliban and their foreign friends then, of course, the Iraqi people are human beings like we are. They would want change, they would want change for betterment in the country. If the situation is different, of course, they would want something else. I can't say what it is…

If I presume the Iraqis are living under the conditions the Afghans were living during the time of the Taliban, then,
of course, a change would be necessary. It would be welcome from the point of being a human being. As a man, one would want another man, another people, to have a better life.

President Karzai, if the air strikes exceed say, the 1st Friday prayers, to the next Friday prayers and you are into the 4th Friday prayers. That could have an impact on the emotions of the people.

See, when the war against Al Qaeda, against the Taliban, the struggles against them were beginning, that's what some leaders around the world, some people would say, if it goes into Ramzan, people wouldn't like it to go on for months and years. But you saw the Taliban run away in less than two months. I am not going to get into this thing of from one Friday to another…It depends on what the people of Iraq expect for themselves.

What will be the reaction here?

We are too busy rebuilding our country. We are too experienced now to act wrongly or sentimentally on this. Of course, every man, Muslim or non-Muslim, mankind as a whole, would not want another man to suffer. To that end we would want Iraq to have a government of their choice. And if there is an operation there that is quick, clean and swift without casualties for the Iraqi people or any suffering for the Iraqi people.

You are going to Washington where you will be seen as a symbol of how the international community can effectively being about a regime change.

I am of the opinion the world, mankind, have a responsibility towards each other. When I was working against the Taliban and against the presence of foreigners here who were hurting Afghanistan, when I was going around the capitals of the world for five years…this was my premise -- that it is legitimate, it is required for people in the world, for governments to go and free other people, a nation that is under terror.

I would consider it legitimate if the international community says it is fine to go and bring a better government to a country somewhere in the world. I am not bound by the niceties of international politics where people decide issues based on their national interest and give it a moralistic name. Moralistic is the approach that would make the
life of other people easier, better. Without interference, without other motives; but a motive to bring a betterment to a nation.

You mentioned Al Qaeda and the Taliban. There have been reports in The Wall Street Journal and The Independent that Al Qaeda, the Taliban and Gulbuddin Hekmatyar may be regrouping. There have been attacks on American positions in various parts of the country, particularly in eastern Afghanistan. 

For me it is not a question of regrouping or not regrouping. The terrorists are still on the run. It is natural they will try to preserve themselves, they will escape or protect themselves. The struggle will go on for sometime. Not only in Afghanistan, not only in Pakistan, (not only on) the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, but in many other nations. This will go on until we achieve complete success, complete victory.

You mentioned Pakistan and the Pakistan border. Is there sufficient co-operation from the other side of that border?

I had a call from President Musharraf about 10 days ago in which he said there is need for more co-operation on the border to fight terrorism more effectively. I trust him very much on that. We agreed to discuss this in detail when I visit Pakistan in March.

In the nation-building you are engaged in, one of the big projects you have is the Afghan national army. The Americans were supposed to have trained about 7,000 soldiers by now. I gather about 1,500 to 2000 have been actually trained (Karzai interrupts and says "more than 3,000"… Naqvi asks "more than 3,000?") What are the difficulties?

We had not conceptualized it. It took us a long time to understand how to do it, to prepare the techniques and the methods for it. Now we are ready. We have the commissions. As a matter of fact, yesterday, we discussed the complete formations of the sub-commissions for the creation of the national army. The work is going on well. The ones
we have trained already as the national army of Afghanistan are doing very well in the countryside. When they go to Pakhtika, when they go to Bamiyan, when they go to Gardez they are received very nicely.

I believe there is going to be a draft constitution ready by the end of March which will be placed before the Loya Jirga in October. What kind of a constitution do you envisage?

A constitution first of all (must) have continuity; to be able to run and function, to be a day to day document, to provide the Afghan people with a political order that will show first the right to self-determination for the Afghan people, the right for them to vote, the right for them to have institutional order in this country, and the right for them to protect that institutional order by their voting the kind of people, the political parties or groups they prefer.
Basically a democratic Constitution, a constitution in keeping with the Islamic values of Afghanistan, in keeping with the traditions of Afghanistan, in keeping with the overall value system that prevails in this country, the rights of freedom of speech and expression and political choice.

Will it be secular jurisprudence as you have in Turkey or will it be Sharia law?

We are a Muslim country. We never were a secular country and we will not be. We are a Muslim country. Our laws will be Islamic. We will go by that. But, of course, we will have civic codes as well, as it was in the constitution of 1964 to go by.

You will come to New Delhi. I gather you will also go to Shimla this time. What is the agenda in Shimla?

The best years of my life were (spent) in Shimla. From the ages of 18-and-a-half to 24. That period is the best part of your life. And I spent it there…and I spent it very, very happily. I am going to see Shimla again, meet my friends and have a good, happy time.