'Discrimination Is Present Among Scheduled Castes Too'

'All of these guys who are opposing the Supreme Court judgment are from dominant scheduled caste communities and none of them come from the scavenging community.'
'Not a single scavenging leader will oppose this Supreme Court judgment.'

The Supreme Court judgment allowing states to sub-categorise scheduled castes and scheduled tribes for reservations has opened a Pandora's box, especially over its order that the creamy layer among SC/ST must be excluded from reservations, with many Dalit parties coming out against the order.

Union Minister Chirag Paswan, president, Lok Janshakti Party and a Dalit leader, has stated that he will file a review petition against the judgment.

Bahujan Samaj Party leader Mayawati went further and said the National Democratic Alliance government must overturn the Supreme Court judgment through a Constitutional amendment and place it in the 9th Schedule of the Constitution so that it cannot be challenged in courts.

Among the many who have also welcomed the judgment is Ravichandran Bathran, a post-doctoral scholar who runs the YouTube channel Dalit Camera (external link) and whose research paper 'The many omissions of a concept: Discrimination amongst Scheduled Castes' was quoted in the Supreme Court ruling on August 1.

Bathran converted to Islam (external link) in January 2020 and goes by the name of Raees Mohammed as he felt that Islam is the only religion that can annihilate the caste system.

Before converting to Islam, Bathran came from the Arunthathiyar caste in Tamil Nadu which was involved in manual scavenging and cleaning toilets and, he says, faced discrimination from other scheduled castes.

Today he runs a successful company, Kotagiri Septic Tank Cleaning Services, and is popularly known as 'Septic tank bhai'.

Raees Mohammed spoke to Syed Firdaus Ashraf/Rediff.com on why the Supreme Court judgment is welcome, and why Dalit parties are opposing it.

The Supreme Court judgment allowing sub-categorisation of scheduled Ccastes for reservations is being opposed by Dalit parties, why?

The judgment is a revelation judgment for us. The scavenging community has been stating that among the scheduled castes they are being treated unequally.

The schedule castes are a heterogeneous community. We have different food habits and culture. We have different history from other scheduled castes. We face violence from fellow schedule castes.

Discrimination is present among scheduled castes too.

The Supreme Court judgment too says that scheduled castes are a heterogeneous community and not homogeneous. We have been arguing this point for so long.

We Valmikis, Mangs, Mehtars, Sakis are not in power.

Which are the powerful castes among Dalits and which are the not so powerful ones?

The cobbler caste is a powerful caste among scheduled castes. Mayawati is from the cobbler community which is a dominant caste and is ruling among the scheduled castes.

The same goes with Union Minister Chirag Paswan's caste which is powerful and a ruling class among the scheduled castes.

The Mahar community of Ramdas Athavale is a dominant caste among the scheduled castes in Maharashtra.

Chandrashekhar Azad is also from a dominant caste among scheduled castes.

All of these guys who are opposing the Supreme Court judgment are from dominant scheduled caste communities and none of them come from the scavenging community.

Not a single scavenging leader will oppose this Supreme Court judgment. 18 percent of scheduled castes get reservations. What we are saying is that the same logic should apply for those who are the marginalised community in the scheduled castes.

How will you explain this by giving an example?

In Tamil Nadu there are 18 percent scheduled castes. Among this 18 percent, take a list of castes which are very backward like the scavenger community which is Valmiki (who do manual scavenging work).

Sub-classification is a must.

The basis of reservations is untouchability. And even if Mayawati or Chirag Paswan might come from a dominant scheduled caste they will have to face untouchability from the upper castes and that is the basis of reservations.
Does this judgment thus not overlook the principles of untouchability?

Scheduled castes and scheduled tribe reservation status was given to them on two levels.

One level was empowerment and another level was protection of their rights, which is stopping the discrimination.

We are talking of empowerment of scavenger castes within scheduled caste category. We are not telling to relook into SC/ST reservation. We are only talking of empowerment.

For example, if 10 Dalits are applying for a job you give jobs to Valmikis according to their population.

We are not asking for entire reservation to be kept aside for Valmikis.

In Tamil Nadu already 3 percent of reservations is given to the scavenging community who are called Arunthathiyar through scheduled caste reservation, even though their population is 6 percent.

You stated in one of your interviews that in India, toilets are always kept outside homes in villages and from there the caste structure came in. Was it done to keep scavengers out of the upper caste homes and lives?

The caste system in India is rooted and reproduced in toilets, septic tanks and the (caste of the) cleaner.

There was a study in Maharashtra in 2011 which found out that even Dalits kept their toilets out (so that the scavenger community can do the dirty work and not enter their homes).

This is done because toilets are considered to be untouchable.

If you go to any old building from the British era or the chawl system of Mumbai, you will find that toilets are built outside homes. Even if it is built inside homes, the toilet will be attached to a separate staircase so that sweepers can come and clean the toilet by taking that route, which is not taken by other caste people.

The caste system is rooted in sanitation and therefore the scavenging system still exists.

In earlier times the government used to give space for temples in villages but never space for toilets. This was true for schools too where they never made toilets in government schools. It is only now that the culture of building toilets has picked up.

What are the problems that the scavenging community faces from other Dalit communities?

All Dalits may have self-respect in doing their professional work but a majority of sweeping work is the government work which is done by Valmikis, which is my community.

In India sanitation work is worse than a labourer's work. And this work is considered as service to the nation.

For example, the prime minister will take a broom and tell them to clean roads. He will never tell the people to sit and act like the collector of a district.

He does not do that because that job is not a service to the nation, but sweeping with a broom and cleaning roads is considered as service to the nation.

There is no law for sweepers of India. The sweeping labourers are treated very differently from the way other professions are treated.

Why did only the Valmiki caste get stuck in sweeping and cleaning work in India and not the rest of the scheduled castes?

The sweeping work came only with the coming of municipalities in cities. Before this there was open defecation. People used to go to the bushy areas or watery areas to answer nature's call.

Our Valmiki brothers were leather workers before municipalities came into existence. Traditionally in the leather business there is tanning which is a very low level work and there is unbearable stench that makes it difficult to breathe while doing this work. The Valmiki community used to do this work.

Another profession that the Valmiki community used to do was to clear the carcass of a dead cow. It was our duty to do that.

When the British introduced municipalities this work came to us because we accepted this work across India.

The government came and recruited the Valmiki community as they did not consider the work of scavenging as untouchable.

No other community in Dalits or any other community was ready to do this municipality cleaning work so the Valmiki community got into it.

Will the Supreme Court judgment affect Dalit reservations in the future?

The creamy layer of Dalits will be affected by this judgment but not the sub-classified classes among the Dalits.

Why is no political party coming out and openly supporting this judgment?

This is because all the Dalit members of Parliament from all these political parties are from the dominating castes among schedule castes.