ELECTIONS '98
COMMENTARY
SPECIALS
INTERVIEWS
CAPITAL BUZZ
REDIFF POLL
DEAR REDIFF
THE STATES
YEH HAI INDIA!
ARCHIVES

The Rediff Interview/ Justice J S Verma

'The entire system is so corrupt, there is rot in every part of the being'

Justice Jagdish Sharan Verma was the one who oversaw one of India's most important cases in the Supreme Court, the hawala (illegal money transaction) case, beginning in 1995.

It was the one case that united all the major political parties, because there was an accused from every political party, though the maximum hailed from the Congress. The Central Bureau of Investigation, overseeing the case, was asked to report to the Supreme Court to prevent political intervention.

Alas, four years down the line, most of the accused have been let off, or are on the verge of being so. Perhaps the only one who may be sentenced is the Janata Dal's Sharad Yadav, and only because he was 'honest' enough to admit that he was involved and had taken money for the party. The other politicians, true to form, simply denied any involvement. And since you are innocent until proven guilty, with lack of sufficient evidence, the accused were let off one by one.

What does this say for India? Are India's high and mighty beyond the reach of the law? Can corruption never be fought? While these questions cannot be answered easily, Amberish K Diwanji met Justice Verma, who retired as Chief Justice of India, to hear his side of the story, on how and why the judiciary too failed India in its hour of need.

What is the first requirement to fight corruption in India?

Perhaps the most important requirement is reforming the police. I had recently said that the investigation agencies should be completely insulated from outside influence, especially that of politicians and of political parties. But mere insulation is not enough, and this was amply proven by the hawala case. In the hawala case, I had given the Central Bureau of Investigation, the highest branch of the police in the country, complete freedom. There were no controls on them, no outside influence on them. Yet, they failed.

Why did that happen?

This is because the entire system is so corrupt, there is rot in every part of the being. I managed to free the CBI from political interference and ask them to report directly to the Supreme Court. But the CBI simply did not act. In that sense, they failed to deliver. Hence, besides just shielding the cops from outside influence, there must also be a way to get them to deliver.

Where did the CBI fail?

The CBI failed in its filing of the chargesheets. The Supreme Court had ordered the CBI to ensure that chargesheets against the accused in the hawala were filed. What happened was that the CBI filed the chargesheets only to get away from the Supreme Court's supervision and monitoring. And all the chargesheets filed were inadequate, so much so that the court had no choice but to set the accused free. Now how can every chargesheet be a fiasco? It only proved that the CBI was simply not investigating the matter as they should have, as the importance of the case deserved.

After going through the chargesheets, it was found out that there was no evidence, no prima facie case to follow up, nothing. The chargesheets only show that the CBI did not do its duty properly, and one can only guess the reasons.

Another point that needs to be remembered is that the hawala accused have only been discharged, not acquitted. Which means that the CBI can file another, more valid, chargesheet and the courts can then take up the matter once again. The CBI has shown no inclination for doing that.

Did it also show up the weakness of the Supreme Court?

Yes, it did. I will admit that the Supreme Court too failed. What the whole case proved beyond doubt is that we must have strong follow- up proceedings. The Supreme Court, after all, has its limitations. It can supervise, but not enforce. Like I once pointed out, you can take the horse to the pond, but you cannot make the horse drink. The Supreme Court was in the same position: we could free the CBI, but not ensure that it did its job.

What then needs to be done?

The hawala case proves above all that to make the CBI do its job when powerful person are involved remains a major lacuna in our investigation system. Statutory powers are needed to control the CBI. The setting up of the Central Vigilance Commission is a step in that direction, but even the CVC that has been set up is such that the IAS has been let off the hook. So some of the rot remains and this will again tie the hands of the CBI.

I feel that in the long run, only strong public opinion will matter. If there is a strong opinion against corruption, then it will become very difficult for anyone, politicians, police, the judiciary to ignore that sentiment.

As for the legal system, proceedings need to be expedited by the courts at all the levels. Today, only the Supreme Court is able to finish most of its cases, though even the Supreme Court is not perfect and still needs to better. And at the lower levels where most of the initial chargesheets are filed, the legal system has to be much faster. There are too many cases pending in the courts for years and years. And the guilty party uses dilatory tactics very well, by always seeking to postpone the case for their benefit.

When I was looking after the hawala case, I used to hear enough people say within my hearing that they were only waiting for my retirement on January 18, 1998. And they managed to do that.

Is there also the difficulty of providing evidence? After all, corruption is always under the table, not over.

That is true. Evidence needed is corroborative and substantive. In cases of corruption, it is very difficult to find substantive evidence, but you need at least some substantive evidence backed by corroborative evidence. And because the former is so difficult, the Prevention of Corruption Act declares that owning assets disproportionate to known sources of income is substantive evidence.

Now this is very important, because if you just raid the houses of some of our accused, you will easily find evidence showing how they live way beyond their incomes. And once chargesheets are filed on the basis of this evidence, further investigations can be made. The CBI made no attempt to investigate the assets of the accused.

While you were presiding over the hawala case, you spoke of receiving threats. Can you tell us about it?

The threat was not just to me, hence my silence. Maybe I will speak up later. May I also point out, at the risk of sounding immodest, that I have never succumbed to any threat. I was given 'Z' grade security, but of what use is that. Today, there is only one guard outside my house. Yet, I have never bothered to ask the government. No dignified man will ask. And the government has shown no concern at all. But while it doesn't bother me, it might trouble someone else.

During the hawala scandal case phase, the mafia had dug into my past extremely thoroughly. They knew more about me and my family than even I did, about my brother who is abroad, my children, our travelling habits, everything. But I refused to heed to their veiled threats. Yet, this only shows the power of the mafia, their clout and reach.

Then should not the judiciary suo motu take some steps?

Perhaps in that area I failed. Because as a justice, I believed that it would not be right to take steps for the judiciary. It might be too partisan. Therefore, while I asked the government to revise the payscales of the lower judiciary as per the Shetty award, I refused to implement it for the Supreme Court judges. I still think it is for the government to take some steps.

Also, threat perceptions depend upon the individual. Some individuals may want many guards after one threatening call, some may not even bother after many threats.

Do you think India is going the way of Italy, with the mafia controlling everything, and judges getting killed for investigating the mafia? What does it bode for the country?

India becoming like Italy cannot be ruled out. The only saving grace at present is that there is a strong public pressure against corruption, and hence the mafia and their supporters are quiet. This pressure must be kept up.

As for India, I once quoted from Edward Gibbon's The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire that the most important cause for the Roman Empire's fall was the rampant corruption amongst the officials and the public. Even the Mughal empire was destroyed by its corruption. We in India must remain on our guard.

The good thing, as I mentioned earlier, is that there is growing concern among the people, and this might make it difficult for those who are corrupt.

So is there hope yet?

Of course there is hope. One must never lose hope, no matter how bleak the situation appears. When I was supervising the hawala case, I realised that it was proving difficult and that it may not be possible to book the guilty. Yet I never gave up hope till the very end. Even on my last day in the Supreme Court, I was busy handing out orders to be complied with.

And let us look at some of the positive aspects. Today, a former prime minister, P V Narasimha Rao, is still facing trial. Five years ago, who would have ever believed this would have been possible. So there has been some success, even if limited. Thus, if we all believe in fighting the rot, it is possible to do so.

What about the Supreme Court, often seen as the only institution not touched by massive corruption?

I am very hopeful that Supreme Court justices will be able to continue the battle against corruption. A lot depends upon the judges themselves. Not only must the judges be honest and have integrity. They also need to be courageous. And they must have a clean past, so that no mafia member can dig up some detail and then use it to blackmail the judge. So a judge must be honest, brave, and have a clean past.

Moreover, now we have in A S Anand a good chief justice. And after him will be the turn of Justice S P Bharucha, who was with me on the bench hearing the hawala case. Bharucha is a no-nonsense type. With such capable men at the top, I am very hopeful that something positive will come of it all.

The Rediff Interviews