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The Rediff Interview/Pravin Togadia

Few disagree that Pravin Togadia is ruthless, overconfident, and verbose. Known to his critics as the master of tamasha TV, the international secretary general of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad travels extensively, delivering speeches that regularly make news.

A cancer surgeon by profession, Togadia spoke to Sheela Bhatt about the VHP's plans in Gujarat in the upcoming election. Excerpts:

Chief Election Commissioner J M Lyngdoh has said that religious feelings should not be inflamed during campaigning. How do you plan to go about it?

In a democracy, the limits and rights of every constitutional authority have been defined. The Election Commission's powers are also well defined. Former election commissioner G V G Krishnamurthy has said that till the CEC issues a notification, it cannot give any direction to the state administration. Law and order, all over the country, is the job of the district magistrate.

In Gujarat the notification for elections on December 12 was issued on November 18. And still the CEC prohibited the VHP yatra on November 14. On that day only the district magistrate could have prohibited us. Second, the DM has the discretionary power to stop us. On November 13, the DM of Godhra had given us permission and still on November 14, the CEC banned our yatra.

No one is talking about this point. Pseudo-secularists believe that Hindus are second-class citizens of India. If you kill Hindus even then he is not allowed to show his wounds by showing the replica of a railway bogey. He is banned from doing the asthi-kalash yatra of those who died. Rest of the people can go on with their jihads.

Aren't you protesting too much?

Nehruvian secularism was a Western concept that was developed in Europe. Western secularism gave us a philosophy that the state and religion should remain separate. This thinking caught the people's imagination because from the 4th to the 16th century, the ruling class and the Christian religion were jointly exploiting people. Not only that, they tried to finish off all other rituals and imposed the Christian religion.

When the choice for religion vanished, secularism was born. Hindustan has followed the tenets of secularism for 5,000 years. It's not a gift from Europe or Nehru to us. Except the rule of King Ashoka and Bimbisara, Hindustan was wedded to secularism. Pluralism is the Hindu's monopoly. When someone talks Hindu it means he is talking secular.

The CEC's objections are to the use of religion in elections or against the rituals of any religion. It's not against the Hindu lifestyle. The Supreme Court has also now given its verdict that the Hindu culture is a way of life. You can ban the use of religion in elections, but how can you ban the Hindu way of life or style during elections? How can the CEC oppose Hindutva? I just do not understand. Can he oppose the Hindutva articulated through our language, festivals, architecture, food, songs, dance, music, and places of pilgrimage?

And if he is opposing Hindutva articulated through our way of life, then he will have to take away saris from all the Gujarati women because sari is also a symbol of Hindutva. Blouse and the bindi on foreheads and mangalsutras are also symbols of Hindutva. In that case, even those things one will have to be taken off. And men's dhotis are also part of Hindutva. We invite Lyngdoh and Soniaji to object to these things. Otherwise, jab tak suraj-chand rahega, Hindutva rahega.

Don't you find it at all unethical that to help a political party like the BJP, you are appealing to the emotions of Hindu voters? Is it fair?

Tomorrow Lyngdoh can ask us not to wear saris and dhotis during election time. Even that would be called Hindutva propaganda.

Through the VHP network and by spreading Hindutva emotions you are appealing to the voters to vote for the BJP, right?

In a democracy everyone has the right to express his beliefs and emotions. Is the VHP's right to expression acceptable to you or not? If you are accepting the right to jihad and their violence, then please accept our rights too. Look who is gaining and how from our talk of Hindutva. In Uttar Pradesh, we lead the movement, but Atal Bihari Vajpayee said they would not talk to sadhus who want a Ram temple. Who lost the election? BJP! When in 1989-90 Advani said mandir vahin banayenge, who won? BJP!

So it's a harmonious and concentrated effort of the BJP and VHP network that works?

The VHP wants that our network should be used by all political parties of this country. Hindutva is the soul of this nation. We want all parties to accept that truth. This argument has been accepted partly, not fully, by one party. That is why it helps them in some way and those who are opposing it are at a loss.

So you agree that support to religious sentiments helps parties win elections.

Do not oppose religion. Religion is in each molecule of this country. It's our way of life. When there will be no mangalsutra, sari and dhoti, there will remain no Hindu religion. Try to understand the difference between religion and rituals. What I do inside my home is the ritual. If I do that in public you have the right to oppose. But you cannot oppose the candidate if she is fighting it [the election] wearing a sari and bindi.

Why are you not brave enough to accept that you are using the VHP to garner votes for the BJP?

We believe that whoever accepts our thinking --- "Hindutva is a way of life" --- is entitled to use the VHP network. We are extending the invitation to all political parties. We believe "God lives in each one of us". This is our fundamental belief. Gujarat will become the Waterloo of those who oppose our Hindutva thinking.

Many believe that you are hitting below the belt and crossing your limits in opposing CEC Lyngdoh.

My strategy is fixed. If somebody hates me, I'll hate him. If somebody wants to kill me, I'll kill him in self-defence. I am given that right under the Constitution also. If Lyngdoh doesn't care for the Constitution and if he impinges upon our religious rights, why should we not protest? Please note that Lyngdoh has no right to have his own viewpoint. He has to bind himself by the law. He is a public servant. Let him resign and speak, in that case I'll consider his views and respect his rights. I can't accept him bowing to Congress pressure.

What are the VHP's plans for the Gujarat election?

Our plan is simple. We want that none of the temples of Gujarat should become an Akshardham, no Gujarat village should turn into Godhra, and we do not want Gujarat to become Kashmir. We want these sentiments to prevail in the election. We have two enemies, one are these hypocrite secularists. When two terrorists were killed in Ansal Plaza, Kuldip Nayar rushed in. Miyan Musharraf would think of sending 100 more terrorists because there are Kuldip Nayars in India to save Musharraf's terrorists.

Our second enemy are those who beg for Muslim votes, who are playing vote politics at the cost of national security. We will defeat both of them. The Gujarat election will be the graveyard of the pseudo-secularists and the Waterloo of Sonia Gandhi. The Gujarat election will decide the issue of the security of Indians.

We are not interested in the election of the chief minister. We are interested in Delhi and a day after, Islamabad. Today we will defeat terrorism in Gujarat, tomorrow we will fight it throughout India, and a day after we will defeat the epicentre of terrorism, ie, in Pakistan. Dismembering Pakistan's terror infrastructure is a must for India's security.

All your rhetoric was stunningly snubbed by none other than PM Vajpayee by his one act of appearing on a television news channel.

If in my home I have a 75-year-old grandpa and if I want to trade in crores he will discourage me by advising against it. Similarly, Atalji is 75 years old, the grandpa of our home. But he can't stop me from dealing in crores. It's the generation gap between me and him.

In Gujarat, you are considered an extra-constitutional authority.

Anyone with power will be called an extra-constitutional authority. Rabri Devi rules, but Laloo has the authority. If the critics consider me an extra-constitutional authority, then I must be a man with power and more powerful than the chief minister, though I don't think so. Today I am influencing the BJP, tomorrow I will influence the Congress also.

How?

That, time will answer.

Have you started your campaign in Gujarat?

We have 2,000 sadhus and we have lakhs of volunteers who will work in the field. We will have a door-to-door campaign. We will ask people with folded hands whether they want their temples to turn to Akshardham? We will request them to protect their religion, their village, and Gujarat. The VHP will help villages in performing yagnas with pictures of the martyrs of Godhra. Thousands of such yagnas have been organised. Here they will take a vow to protect their village temple and their state. This is our final programme. We will have each yagna of 50-60 people only, it will help us communicate the message properly. The host will pay Rs 500 for yagnas. The VHP will not spend anything. We will supply pictures of the martyrs of Godhra.

You have been accused of interfering in the distribution of tickets in Gujarat.

Not true. We wanted only two things. The candidate should not be corrupt and he should not be against the Hindutva philosophy.

Is Narendra Modi a true Hindu if judged according to your criteria of Hindutva?

I'll not answer this question. I will express my opinion after five years!

Gujarat Election 2002

The Rediff Interviews