The Satish Gujral Chat
Satish Gujral, in an unusual and eloquent encounter on the Rediff Chat. Check out the transcript!
Mr Satish Gujral (Mon Jan 12 1998 5:56 IST)
Hello Everybody
Mr Satish Gujral (Mon Jan 12 1998 7:48 IST)
Hello everybody I am here to answer your questions. Let us begin the session
Harikishen (Mon Jan 12 1998 7:44 IST)
Hello Mr Gujral, its a great feeling to be chatting with you:-) Sir what is your opinion of the current state of Indian politics and does it reflect in your work?
Mr Satish Gujral (Mon Jan 12 1998 7:57 IST)
harikishen: The state of politics in India today I find confusing, but I do not think it as hopeless. The breaking of large parties and the formation of a contradictory and opportunistic alliance is something which all of you have been familiar in the democracies of the world. Such an evolution is just part of the process. If you go through the democracies there are only two countries where a two party system has been intact. These are the US and UK. You may call them somewhat like the mother of democracies. In every other country we see democratically elected governments with much more frequency than what we see in India. Take for example the famous cliche about France where in the early days a statesman told a servant to bring him hot water in the morning and tell him the day and the date and also the name of the latest prime minister. What is happening in Italy is also known to us. I believe we shall soon be reconciled with coalitions and they will provide stability. As an artist I am not affected because I don't believe that an artist is a chronicler. An artist digests the life around him. But when it comes to expression the process with them is like when you eat vegetables or meat or fish or whatever else, yet what shows on your skin is not vegetables nor one can trace it by looking at your face what you have eaten. Eating only contributes to your energy and so is the artist. Those who start illustrating events around them are illustrators and journalists, not artists.
Arpan (Mon Jan 12 1998 7:56 IST)
Hello Sir, Satishji what kind of prime minister do you think the India of today needs? Do you think that the current caretaker prime minister Mr Gujral is the kind of leader India needs?*please give us an unbiased opinion:-)
Mr Satish Gujral (Mon Jan 12 1998 8:10 IST)
Arpan: Of course you have put me in a situation where however and how much I may try to be neutral my answers will be suspect to my emotions for my brother. But I can honestly tell you that I judge him more as a citizen than as a brother when I am answering you. I had the opportunity to know great prime ministers like Nehru Indira Gandhi, Lal Bahadur Shastri, Chandra Shekhar, V P Singh and I can easily judge the work of various prime ministers. I believe my brother has proven himself to be a man very much fit to discharge his responsibilities. Unfortunately, present day politics is such you cannot compare his performance with others. It was possible to compare the performance of Nehru and Shastri because the circumstances in which they ruled were similar though not quite so. For example, how Nehru might have behaved in Tashkent when he came face to face with Ayub Khan? I remember how irritated Mrs Gandhi used to get when she was reminded of the legacy of her father. I remember her speech in Parliament when she said I am Nehru's daughter, I idolise him as a father and I idolise him as a prime minister yet I do not see how in the same situation I could find from his legacy a ready made formula for every problem. What I have learned from him is to face a problem with courage and act according to the best of your honesty and judgement. The same I would say about my brother. He is not given the leadership of just one party so that he could do things in a similar way as his predecessors did. He had to keep so many diverse forces and it is to his credit whatever you may say he acted like a gentleman. I have heard this being used as an accusation against him that his being a gentleman makes him unsuitable to be the prime minister. Is not it a reflection of the type of political character of our system that being a gentleman is no longer a qualification?
Pablo (Mon Jan 12 1998 8:7 IST)
People say you and your brother used the Nehrus to get where you have today. Do you agree with this uncharitable assessment?
Mr Satish Gujral (Mon Jan 12 1998 8:17 IST)
Pablo: There is no staircase which may lead you to a stage that you can sit without being qualified to be there. Of course, I have the pride of having known the Nehrus and have admitted it in my autobiography. But you must remember Nehru used to meet me only because I had made it in art not that he made me. Of course, my brother got introduced to the Nehrus through me but it was just an introduction -- the role my wife plays these days -- that of an interpreter -- was being played by my brother in those days. But my wife didn't become prime minister. If my brother achieved it, it was because he had the qualifications and the talent and you must also remember that he became prime minister 20 years after he had broken with the Nehru-Gandhis. There are people in India of his generation who for a much longer duration were closer and even closer to this family. How many of them have become prime ministers? Remember that an introduction or a chance is like a launching pad that may help you spring but the pad itself doesn't go with you in the air. In case where it does it brings down with its own weight?
Priti Khanna (Mon Jan 12 1998 8:15 IST)
Mr Gujral, as an artist have you found any impediments in building your art career? What are the problems that Indian artists often face in the country and abroad?
Mr Satish Gujral (Mon Jan 12 1998 8:26 IST)
Priti Khanna: There is no cake walk in any field more so in creative life where like the poet Faiz Ahmed Faiz said: maidane wafa darbar nahin, yan nam nisab ke pooch kahan. Ashique to kisi ka nam nahin koi ishque kisi ki zat nahin. Which means that the battlefield is not a regal court. The battlefield of life is not a court where your title or caste or birth be of any help. That is it. As an artist like everybody else I had to submit to myself every time once again for judgement. No judgement is final. Every artist is constantly being judged. The moment he shows weakness he is thrown out. Of course, I wouldn't like here to use my physical predicament to ask for any credit nor it is justified. And I have well explained it when I quoted Faiz Ahmed Faiz. A physical disadvantage may invoke some social sympathy but it cannot get you a place in the creative world.
Pablo (Mon Jan 12 1998 8:21 IST)
What a response, sir! I was told that unlike your mild brother, you were a ball of fire. Such candour is wonderful on the Net!
Mr Satish Gujral (Mon Jan 12 1998 8:29 IST)
Pablo: It is true while we both brothers have similar ideals yet in character we are not similar. My brother inherited much from my father who was very sober and was difficult to get provoked. At the same time he was very patient and cool. In my case I inherited more from my mother. And you may call her a ball of fire. As such I cannot suffer fools easily nor I would call myself patient.
Sardar Gill (Mon Jan 12 1998 8:27 IST)
Who, in your opinion, are india's ten best artists -- painters only please!
Mr Satish Gujral (Mon Jan 12 1998 8:32 IST)
Gill: I think it is not right for me to give such a judgement. Every artist is very much conditioned by his own view of life and in fact this very conditioning helps him to go to the core of his subject. Naturally if he was tolerant with other views to the safe measure he wouldn't be true to himself. So if I choose an artist it will be fraught with prejudice. All I can say that my generation has produced quite a number of artists of world standing.
Lala Ram (Mon Jan 12 1998 8:27 IST)
I believe you do not speak to Husain. Would you consider him India's greatest painter? I must tell you that there is a larger crowd here for you than there was for him!
Mr Satish Gujral (Mon Jan 12 1998 8:37 IST)
Lala Ram: It is not true that I don't speak to Husain. In spite of our differences we have always been courteous to each other. And whatever else I may say about him I admit him to be an artist of great talent. It is unfortunate that he chose to waste away his talent for publicity but this doesn't diminish my admiration for the significance of his role in the development of contemporary Indian art. In fact whenever I think about Husain I rather feel sorry for him. Such sorrow comes when you witness a tragedy and a tragedy is always of a great man. A man having merit but either not getting his due or wasting it away. Ordinary people do not suffer a tragedy as there is nothing about them to justify their plight as a tragedy.
nami (Mon Jan 12 1998 8:30 IST)
I understand that to an artist, his art is his own expression of himself. Yet, is there any way you can contribute through your art to the revival of our country, which at present has been plummeting down to decadence?
Mr Satish Gujral (Mon Jan 12 1998 8:40 IST)
Nami: I have already said that I am an artist and not a chronicler. There are thousands of people who can easily be posted to look after the social problems. But there are very few artists who can give the social feeling a creative colour for the benefit of not just their own times but for all times. If we put these artists to solve the social problems rather than to create it will be like to put a horse for a job which even a donkey could do.
Priti Khanna (Mon Jan 12 1998 8:35 IST)
Thank you for your response Mr Gujral. Who are the artists that you have admired? Any all time favourites? Anyone that has inspired you?
Mr Satish Gujral (Mon Jan 12 1998 8:45 IST)
Priti Khanna: Normally each artist has a role model. Someone who has achieved in formulating things in the way one himself would like to do. Say with whom he shares a temperament. In my case it has never been one because I have always made very rapid changes in my moods and techniques of expression. So in every different mood I had a different role model. In my earliest days my role model was the Mexican artist Orozco. And like in my childhood I wanted or dreamed of opening a shoe shop so that I may have a new shoe every day. And in my boyhood I wanted to be Napoleon. Similarly, my idols have been varying with the passage of time.
Buanorotti (Mon Jan 12 1998 8:18 IST)
Have observed your almost dramatic shift in style, from the brooding dark and sweeping portraits of your youth to the more measured paintings later, a bigger jump, say, than from these paintings to your later experiments, even after a shift in medium. Does that first big shift reflect from your experiences?? If so, could you tell us what exactly?
Mr Satish Gujral (Mon Jan 12 1998 8:56 IST)
Buanorotti: I would first explain to you the difference between the traditional and the contemporary art expression. In the traditional the emphasis was never on individuality but more on expression. In the contemporary or say the modern the emphasis is on the individuality of a work and a style. Every artist is supposed to have style, a language of his own. This puts a great strain or limitation, the way style being a physical character of an expression has the limitation of getting exhausted and make one artist repetitive. For instance, you choose three or four artists from any country belonging to the modern times and you 'll see how repetitive they become if they cannot break away from the stranglehold of a particular style. I tried to break this stranglehold whenever I felt that whatever I could say in a particular medium or style has been said. And went out for greener pastures. In the first case when I tried it that is at the time of my first period in which I had been painting woman suffering. It was not easy because I had got identified with the style and it was this style which brought me the standing I had achieved. Giving it up was like giving up your face for another in which nobody may recognise you. And this really happened. I lost all that group who admired that earlier period. But once that I had made the plunge in subsequent periods it was not that difficult to make similar changes.
Sardar Gill (Mon Jan 12 1998 8:46 IST)
Has Kiranji been your only muse? It is very unusual for artists to be one-woman people...
Mr Satish Gujral (Mon Jan 12 1998 8:59 IST)
Sardar Gill: Of course, artists are always expected to lead unusual lives and men are by nature always prone to flirt. And I am no exception. But at the same time it puts the fear of God in me or say the fear of Kiran in me. She is capable to give tit for tat.
Pablo (Mon Jan 12 1998 8:46 IST)
Thank you for clearing the air on Husain. Why do you think he went astray? Is it because of his early poverty? Why does he constantly feel the need to stay in the public eye? Don't you think some very fine painters -- Gaitonde, for instance -- have been overlooked by the media who have been obsessed by Husain?
Mr Satish Gujral (Mon Jan 12 1998 9:5 IST)
Pablo: One thing you must remember that artists in their physical desires are no different from other people. They too would like to have worldly comforts, money, fame and everything. But the test is how much an artist is willing to sacrifice to get these things. Art is the greatest gift that nature can bestow on a human being. It makes humble people equal to kings. I consider it tragic even insensible on an artist's part to waste away this for physical returns. What persuaded Husain to take this path of self destruction is difficult to explain. You cannot say that it is because he had a past of life in poverty. Most artists come from deprived sections of society. There is no answer to how one may work and other may not. I have seen two buds in the same branch flower or whither away at different times.
James (Mon Jan 12 1998 8:4 IST)
Sir, do you think Mr I K Gujral should contest from Jalandhar with the support from Akalis considering that the Akalis have joined hands with the BJP???
James (Mon Jan 12 1998 9:0 IST)
Mr Gujral: I think you must answer the question about Mr Gujral contesting from Jalandhar? He is shaking hands with a communal party like the Akali Dal??
Mr Satish Gujral (Mon Jan 12 1998 9:10 IST)
James: I think you are wrong. My brother is a Punjabi and as a Punjabi he had tried to help the state of his origin. When he did that the people of Punjab, regardless of their political colour, paid him homage not long ago. And as a token of gratitude decided to support him. If the Akalis came forward and others didn't when the time came for an election it was not my brother's fault, but the narrowness of other political parties. They forgot the very fact that what my brother's government did was for the whole of Punjab not withstanding the fact as to which party was ruling that state. He is not going to stand on any other party's ticket, but the one to which he belongs. Only today the newspapers have published a public opinion poll from Jalandhar which cut across community and political lines. 68% voters opted for my brother.
Mr Satish Gujral (Mon Jan 12 1998 9:13 IST)
Hello everybody I am signing off. Thank you very much for being with me for so long.
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